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Personnel Upgrades Description Query

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  • Personnel Upgrades Description Query

    I've been keeping the Battlescribe files as closely to the book as possible and that has come up with a bit of an odd situation when it comes to Personnel Upgrades. In the 'Picking a Force' section it states that:

    "Important: Each Infantry team may have a maximum of one Personnel and one Equipment upgrade,whereas Support upgrades are one per unit."

    In-keeping with this rule, the vast majority of personnel upgrades are written as "Upgrade any 1 Team with a....", which clearly indicates that within a unit, one (and only one) of the teams within that unit can have that particular personnel upgrade. However, the universal upgrades are written as "Upgrade any Infantry unit with a...", and the only guideline on these is that "They must still comply with the type limits of all other unit upgrades". As these are rather incongruous, I'm a little confused as to exactly what the limits are:

    1. Can infantry units have universal Personnel upgrades in addition to the one Personnel upgrade per team? This is the interpretation that is closest to the rules as written because upgrading a unit does not contravene any of type limits as there is no limit on units having Personnel upgrades, only teams. However, this would also mean that a unit could have multiple Universal Personnel Upgrades, which I'm guessing wasn't the intention?

    OR

    2. Should Universal Upgrades read "Within any Infantry unit, upgrade any 1 Team with a..."? This would seem to be in the spirit of the rules, but would require errata.

  • #2
    As I read it:

    Each team can only have one personnel upgrade, no matter the upgrade source.

    So it can be from the unit options or the universal section, as long as its only one per team.
    Last edited by MrPieChee; 17-07-2017, 02:12 PM. Reason: I went off on an unfounded tangent...

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    • #3
      Originally posted by MrPieChee View Post
      As I read it:

      Each team can only have one personnel upgrade, no matter the upgrade source.

      Each unit can only have a single universal upgrade of a given type.

      Meaning, if you have a two team unit with a specialist in both units, then you can't add a universal personnel upgrade to that unit at all. Equally, if you have a 5 team unit with one specialist upgrade, a universal upgrade can go in any one of the teams, other than the one which already has a personnel upgrade. Finally, if you have a 5 team unit with no personell upgrades, you can't have 5 of the same universal upgrade (bit you can have one, on any one of the teams).

      The universal upgrades just add an extra restriction on the personnel upgrade.
      Where does say that you can only use one Universal Upgrade in each unit?

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      • #4
        Urrgh. I have no idea. Not sure where I went with that. The wording of the upgrades does hint at it a little, but pretty sure it isn't intentional. Middle of the day, and I'm half asleep!

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        • #5
          Hi,
          I hope you don't mind if I chime in here. The key to understand this isssue is in the paragraph on Universal upgrades on pg 75, which makes it pretty clear to me:

          Universal Upgrades
          In addition, each force list will have a selection
          of upgrades that are not tied to a particular
          unit for force selection purposes. These can
          be distributed across your force as you wish
          at the start of the game, although they will
          be a limited resource, and may only upgrade
          certain types of unit. They must still comply
          with the type limits of all other unit upgrades.
          The last 2 sentences are of particular importance, and even more so, the second one (the last one) - which I put in bold - letters might present the answer you are looking for.

          - Certain types of unit lists meand only specific types of units that can contain any given universal upgrade. A very specialised example are the Asterians, where only Cyphers can get Overseers and only Kalyshi can be upgraded with Dervishes. On the other hand, leaders like Enforcer Captains, Marauder Warlords, Plague Alpha ("Any Infantry") can be used to upgrade both regular and large infantry units. Yes, you can put a Plague Alpha also into an unit of 2nd Generation Bursters or Leapers, or even Murder Birds and Zombies.

          - The last sentence refers to the note regarding the types of upgrades you can choose, which you can find on pg 75 a little further up the page:

          Important: Each Infantry team may have
          a maximum of one Personnel and one
          Equipment upgrade, whereas Support
          upgrades are one per unit.
          Remember that some unit upgrades are subject to limitations within the unit itself, e.g. you can't have more than 2 HMGs in a St3 Plague unit.

          So, if you want to upgrade an Enforcer Strike Team unit consisting of 2 teams with both a Sergeant (which is an 0-1 unit-specific personnel upgrade) and a Medic (an universal personnel upgrade), they both count as Personnel Upgrades and can't be in the same team. In this case, you can't add a third personnel upgrade (which would be another universal personnel upgrade, e.g. a Captain or Sharpshooter, because the Sergeant is 0-1 per unit) to the unit, as the unit's 2 teams won't allow for more than 2 personnel upgrades, 2 equipment upgrades and a maximum of 1 support upgrade*. If you had a Peacekeeper unit consisting of 3 teams, you could add a 3rd personnel upgrade.

          Hope that helps,
          Captn M.

          PS: * Incidentally, I just noticed that there is a bit of a holdover of earlier intinerations of army list design. The note on pg 75 limiting support upgrades to 1 per unit makes the "0-1" entries for upgrades such as the Dog Drone and the Inferno Drill (which are listed as such in their respective list entries) obsolete. Joe Neet I suppose that's something for the RC to add to the errata and FAQ.
          Last edited by Captn Morgrim; 18-07-2017, 09:23 AM.

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          • #6
            I will send this over to the RC and have them look over it all.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Captn Morgrim View Post
              Hi,
              I hope you don't mind if I chime in here. The key to understand this isssue is in the paragraph on Universal upgrades on pg 75, which makes it pretty clear to me:

              The last 2 sentences are of particular importance, and even more so, the second one (the last one) - which I put in bold - letters might present the answer you are looking for.

              - Certain types of unit lists meand only specific types of units that can contain any given universal upgrade. A very specialised example are the Asterians, where only Cyphers can get Overseers and only Kalyshi can be upgraded with Dervishes. On the other hand, leaders like Enforcer Captains, Marauder Warlords, Plague Alpha ("Any Infantry") can be used to upgrade both regular and large infantry units. Yes, you can put a Plague Alpha also into an unit of 2nd Generation Bursters or Leapers, or even Murder Birds and Zombies.

              - The last sentence refers to the note regarding the types of upgrades you can choose, which you can find on pg 75 a little further up the page:

              Remember that some unit upgrades are subject to limitations within the unit itself, e.g. you can't have more than 2 HMGs in a St3 Plague unit.

              So, if you want to upgrade an Enforcer Strike Team unit consisting of 2 teams with both a Sergeant (which is an 0-1 unit-specific personnel upgrade) and a Medic (an universal personnel upgrade), they both count as Personnel Upgrades and can't be in the same team. In this case, you can't add a third personnel upgrade (which would be another universal personnel upgrade, e.g. a Captain or Sharpshooter, because the Sergeant is 0-1 per unit) to the unit, as the unit's 2 teams won't allow for more than 2 personnel upgrades, 2 equipment upgrades and a maximum of 1 support upgrade*. If you had a Peacekeeper unit consisting of 3 teams, you could add a 3rd personnel upgrade.

              Hope that helps,
              Captn M.

              PS: * Incidentally, I just noticed that there is a bit of a holdover of earlier intinerations of army list design. The note on pg 75 limiting support upgrades to 1 per unit makes the "0-1" entries for upgrades such as the Dog Drone and the Inferno Drill (which are listed as such in their respective list entries) obsolete. Joe Neet I suppose that's something for the RC to add to the errata and FAQ.
              All the bits you quoted are the same as the ones I highlighted in my original post, and your interpretation of the rules is just a choice of the second option I proposed. The issue is that the rules state there is a limit on the number of Personnel Upgrades a team can take (one), and all Personnel Upgrades specific to units have writing that states as such (Upgrade 1 team etc.). However, universal Personnel Upgrades specifically state that you are upgrading a unit (i.e. you are not upgrading a team). As there are no prescribed limits on Personnel Upgrades at the unit level, this creates a vague area that needs to be addressed by the RC.

              Originally posted by Joe Neet View Post
              I will send this over to the RC and have them look over it all.
              Thanks mate! I'm guessing it will be a simple choice of option 2 to put in errata (and I'm guessing most people will interpret it as such, as per Captn Morgrim's post), but at the moment I believe the rules as written allow multiple universal Personnel Upgrades outside of the 1 per team limit.

              Comment


              • #8
                However, universal Personnel Upgrades specifically state that you are upgrading a unit (i.e. you are not upgrading a team). As there are no prescribed limits on Personnel Upgrades at the unit level, this creates a vague area that needs to be addressed by the RC.
                Actually, during playtest, I was in email conversation with Stew regarding upgrade options, as I had a few questions and suggestions of my own.

                My question: Limits on universal upgrades: Should there be a limit on universal upgrades per unit? Could a Corporate Marine squad include several engineers, or a Peacekeeper team several medics?
                Stew's answer: Yep, as long as you follow the normal rules, so no more than one personnel upgrade per team.


                Therefore, I find the last sentence in the universal upgrade paragraph to clarify the issue for me:

                "They must still comply with the type limits of all other unit upgrades."

                So, if we were to talk about a hypothetical universal upgrade with the support subtype, an unit that has its own support upgrade choice (e.g. Plague St3 with Beast support, Brokkr with Inferno Drills and Pathfinders with their D.O.G. drone), this unit would have to pick their own support upgrade OR the universal one. The same 'd go for personnel or equipment upgrades, meaning you can't add both an unit-specific personnel/equipment upgrade and an universal personnel/equipment upgrade to the same team.

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