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[Warpath] Problems and Issues

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  • [Warpath] Problems and Issues

    After reading a thread on Facebook it would seem that lots of people are finding issues with the rules and general balance. I'd like to start collecting these problems here, much like I've done with the FAQ. This will hopefully make it easy for everyone to contribute, and for the rules committee to make decisions on what to do! Also, failing that, it'll make it easy for players to sort out house rules!

    I'd like to keep this thread as just problems, with no discussion of solutions. As more people make mention of things I'll edit the head post and summarise the problems. At the moment I'm just adding most of what is said, but at some point it will be worth actually discussing whether they are all problems or just perceived problems.

    Solutions to problems discussed can be posted here.

    [This is just an initial list, take them with a pinch of salt, I've pulled them mostly from what people have said on Facebook, in one line posts. Would be nice to see detailed posts below.]


    There are loads of broken/unbeatable lists: List building gives you too much flexibility, for instance building a defence 8 only Iron Ancestor list.

    Flyers are tough to deal with: Plague basically can't do anything against flyers, and no one can do anything against Enforcer Bombers.

    Orbital bombardment deletes many units round 1: Orbital commanders will always make their points back in tight deployment, and be very effective against horde armies.

    Tanks can ram an army of infantry to death: Theoretically a tank can run round in circles running down infantry all day long. (this is also in the FAQ)

    Mission balance seems poor, and often one side is tabled before VPs matter: Generally games don't last more than a few rounds, so primary and secondary objectives don't really matter. To add to this, most secondary objectives are either easy or impossible with no middle ground.

    (on the back of above) Everything is too Killy: Which means games don't last long enough for the missions to matter and the game is too much about a few units killing everything else.

    Composition can decide the game (too much rock paper scissors?): This is similar to many other issues - if you don't bring enough anti-tank you loose. Similarly, I would imagine anti-horde is needed (but not tested myself - could an elite enforcer army beat a horde of zombies or night crawlers?). Everything can't kill everything else. Things should be good and bad against different targets, but should some units do zero damage?

    Refresh makes deadly units even more deadly: refresh is only used on units with the greatest damage output and helps to delete units (contributing to making games short).

    Game balance is poor: No FAQ, no balance fixes. Deadzone has seen some really healthy updates that have kept the community keen, firefight got a lengthy FAQ (which only really touched the surface), and Warpath has got nothing.

    Infantry poor(?): Because this is meant to be a Vehicle game, vehicles are good, but infantry fall down to a stiff breeze.

    Terrain doesn't mean a lot: There are effectively two types of units as far as terrain is concerned, Vehicles and not vehicles. Massive infantry, large infantry and infantry all treat it the same. Further more, it doesn't help prop units up against that stiff breeze that keeps murdering them.

    Courage under fire is amazing: The order courage under fire give you a free move. Its designed to allow you to not die from being grounded at the cost of some command dice, but actually is used for free move orders.



    Post away!
    Last edited by MrPieChee; 03-09-2018, 07:19 PM.

  • #2
    [Reserved]
    [I might need to overflow, or reorganise the above post, so having more space is nice ]

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    • #3
      [Reserved again, for the same reason!]

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      • #4
        For me, there are three major problems with Warpath:

        - The core mechanics are solid, but the army rules are pretty poor. Some choices and points values make no sense, and there's some very obvious choices that mean some stuff will just never get a look in. In the games I have played, it just came down to who got to fire their uber unit first. Orbital Bombardment is a really lame mechanic as well. It sucks all the fun out of a game when your big units can be wrecked without any chance of a response, and that can be done every turn. I cannot understand why anyone thought that would be healthy for the game. All I can think is that it wasn't play tested thoroughly enough by genuinely competitive players who can see exactly how to break a game.

        - The missions don't matter at all. A lot of time is spent setting up the battlefield and all of the individual objective markers, only for it to come down to one side destroying the other and no one paying attention to the mission. I can't recall a single game in which the game lasted until the end of the mission to bother with objectives.

        - Mantic's support for the game has been absolutely woeful. Not a single event organised, no real FAQ or errata, no attempt to listen to player feedback and no attempt to breathe life into the game. It's like they delivered the minimum required by the Kickstarter and left it to rot. With a GW game, if I see a mechanic that isn't fun or breaks the game, I can have the expectation that it will be addressed. There is no expectation of that here.

        Absolute case and point is that this post has been up for three weeks and no one has even bothered to comment. A poorly balanced game with no support from the company is not going to lead to people being hyped to promote it. I went in hard on the Kickstarter and own two pretty big armies for this, but I have literally no desire to go out and recruit new players. Especially when there are many better games with actual support being made all the time.

        I am really disappointed by this whole thing because the models are great and the core mechanics are actually really good. Pretty embarrassing for Mantic that they've not bothered to respond to this as well.

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        • #5
          I havenít played straight Warpath but just Firefight (would like to play but we only have smaller collections at the moment) but it seems to me that Manticís main focus has been their Kings of War, Deadzone, and misc board games.

          Warpath has been more of a side project for them to this point. Through I expect that to be more due to how well those items have been doing. I think Warpath has the greatest risk from all of Manticís games since ďthe other gameĒ is still going strong and its much harder to pull people from it. Plus the whole split between Warpath and Firefight has split up the player base and development even further.

          This is all just based on ďmy feel of thingsĒ through so I could be wrong. Havenít even heard much from the olí rules committee peeps either. I do hope things do get settled through. I really dislike most other miniature games but enjoy the Warpath line so the more it can grow the better.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by AlasdhairMM View Post
            For me, there are three major problems with Warpath:

            Orbital Bombardment is a really lame mechanic as well. It sucks all the fun out of a game when your big units can be wrecked without any chance of a response, and that can be done every turn.
            Hi there, just to point out that the characters with Orbital Bombardment can only use it once per game, as they have Limited. Although they are being toned down in the errata anyway.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by revenance View Post

              Hi there, just to point out that the characters with Orbital Bombardment can only use it once per game, as they have Limited. Although they are being toned down in the errata anyway.
              Unless they have lots of command dice, then "Request orbital assistance" means it can be used every turn.

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              • #8
                For me the main problem is that who will win is decided before you reach the table. Army composition has much more influence on who will win than anything that can happen on table. If your opponent has brought a lot of high armour vehicles and you have not got the anti tank weapons needed you lose. There is no way to out play your opponent. Historical games like Bolt Action set in world war two allow different types of armies to compete by the structure of the mission objectives and the fact that different unit types excel in different roles. Besides some vehicles not being allowed to enter terrain there is no real difference in Warpath between unit types. Some boost for infantry would help along the lines of an armour boost in terrain or only infantry being allowed to claim objectives would help but not entirely solve things. I agree the game seems forgotten about by Mantic.

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                • #9
                  There's quite a few points there. I think they can be broken down as follows:
                  - army composition is too free
                  - too much rock paper scissors
                  - terrain interaction by unit type not different enough
                  - cover benfit not great enough
                  - infantry a bit lackluster (I think is the general problem of the game being too killy)
                  - lack of support

                  I'll add them tomorrow when I'm not on my phone

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MrPieChee View Post

                    Unless they have lots of command dice, then "Request orbital assistance" means it can be used every turn.
                    Which absolutely sucks the fun out of a game. I honestly donít see the benefit to a game where something like this is possible. There is literally nothing that can be done to stop it and it will consistently delete one or two units a turn.

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                    • #11
                      Coming in from the Firefight side of things but I think the basics would still apply.

                      adding more HVA values would help with keeping army comp a bit more controlled.

                      Do you think maybe changing defensive terrain rules to be split into Soft and Hard terrain types?

                      with Soft terrain giving the penalty to Hit and Hard terrain giving the penalty to Hit and a bonus to the targetís Defense.

                      That said a big rebalance patch would also have to happen to fix most of the other issues.

                      Mantic is focusing on their big money makers with Kings of War, Deadzone, and their board game line. Warpath itself is lost in the shuffle right now.

                      I also believe Warpath is not getting the social buzz that their other lines got, I think this is because more people got the Warpath models to use in 40k and not so much for Warpath. Where Kings of War was also slow to start until GW ended their mass fantasy warfare game, this isnít happening with 40k and Warpath any time soon. This is pure speculation but thats what my gut is telling me. I would not expect much support for Warpath with just a slight nod or something occuring every once in a while.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dracolich View Post
                        Coming in from the Firefight side of things but I think the basics would still apply.

                        adding more HVA values would help with keeping army comp a bit more controlled.

                        Do you think maybe changing defensive terrain rules to be split into Soft and Hard terrain types?

                        with Soft terrain giving the penalty to Hit and Hard terrain giving the penalty to Hit and a bonus to the targetís Defense.

                        That said a big rebalance patch would also have to happen to fix most of the other issues.

                        Mantic is focusing on their big money makers with Kings of War, Deadzone, and their board game line. Warpath itself is lost in the shuffle right now.

                        I also believe Warpath is not getting the social buzz that their other lines got, I think this is because more people got the Warpath models to use in 40k and not so much for Warpath. Where Kings of War was also slow to start until GW ended their mass fantasy warfare game, this isnít happening with 40k and Warpath any time soon. This is pure speculation but thats what my gut is telling me. I would not expect much support for Warpath with just a slight nod or something occuring every once in a while.
                        Well, that's several solutions, in a topic for the issues, but it's so quiet around here I'll let it slide

                        I'm a fan of infantry unlocking units, but just increasing the use of hva's could achieve the same goal.

                        At the moment soft cover is just cover (-1 to hit). Hard cover is defensible terrain (-1 to hit and unflinching). Then you have fortified terrain on top (-2 to hit, unflinching, and extra reactions). If the board is well populated enough this should be enough, except everything is so good at killing everything else, cover doesn't help a great deal. Maybe units should get an extra resilience or defence (or both) at some levels of cover to help. I feel in general things should die less so suppression is more of a thing.

                        Then there is the other problem that if a unit has more teams than can enter a piece of terrain, none of them can enter. This is great for simplifying the rules, but in practice sucks. If you plan for this when making terrain it's ok, but how many people did that?! Perhaps this is where a new terrain category needs to come in - area terrain. You could argue this is the same as cover, but then you're back to wanting hard and soft cover. Maybe this is solved by making things less killy, then you don't need soft cover...

                        I would like to see a 60-75% of the board should be non-open terrain rule to stop people playing with too little terrain. I'd wrap it up in a suggestion to stop it turning people off - default the whole board to cover, then mark areas as open terrain, with say a road, or a town square/park etc. Area terrain is really your friend here.


                        The points are all over the place, so a balance is necessarily. This is a sticking point for me - the ks got me hyped for the game, and the alpha rules looked great. But when the models got delayed and the rules clearly weren't ready Mantic went ahead and printed the rulebook anyway. They could have had two months more to clean the rules up and do a better job capturing those that left 40k (most of which have now returned after it's success).

                        I think one of the really simple problems with warpath is people can't get over the idea of using movement trays for sci-fi. If Mantic halved the price of their 10 packs and did further discounts when buying army deals or big boxes of models then I think it would help a lot. Giving something a go when you have to go out of your way to purchase extra stuff is a lot harder than trying it because you already have everything.

                        [edit, made a thread just for terrain here]
                        Last edited by MrPieChee; 03-09-2018, 07:17 PM.

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                        • #13
                          I guess fundamentally the biggest problem is that everyone has a limited hobby bandwidth. With building, painting and playing you can't get around to every game, and there's so many really awesome games being released right now so there's a lot of demand for my bandwidth.

                          I have built and primed a Forge Father army, but never did anything else with it. Didn't even start on the Enforcers. Nothing is more demotivating than having a flawed game that no one plays and which receives no support at all from the company that made it. I can't see a time when I would work on Warpath stuff when there is so much else capturing my attention right now. I would sell it all, but who is going to buy it?

                          Think the game is in a bit of a pit at the minute. Even Epic Armageddon seems to be in better health!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AlasdhairMM View Post
                            I have built and primed a Forge Father army, but never did anything else with it. Didn't even start on the Enforcers. Nothing is more demotivating than having a flawed game that no one plays and which receives no support at all from the company that made it. I can't see a time when I would work on Warpath stuff when there is so much else capturing my attention right now. I would sell it all, but who is going to buy it?
                            This so much!

                            I haven't given Firefight a second thought for this exact reason - I started Gates of Antares before the book showed up because it was obvious it was going to fail. Warpath is still different from everything else on the market, even if its failing and has no support. If I hadn't bought so much in the KS I probably would have walked away, but I feel that it has the potential to be great. But, I do have most of my models still on sprue's, while my Antares stuff which I bought at retail after my Warpath stuff is in a healthy state.

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