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[DISCUSSION] Some issues after a quick read

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  • [DISCUSSION] Some issues after a quick read

    Iíve had a quick look at some of the lists, particularly the Nightstalkers (since I have that army). Iím looking forward to trying out the game. There are a couple of issues Iíve spotted.


    Can you standardize the way models without ranged attacks have their ranged stats presented? Some have Ra- and Ranged-, some have Ra- and Ranged 1D8. Some have a Ra and Ranged but no equipment. Coming from KoW it would be great if units without ranged weaponry had no ranged stats Ė if they can gain ranged equipment in campaigns a note about their new ranged stats would be better.

    Have you tried combining Ra/Ranged and Me/melee into one box, so 7+/1D8 or 1/7+ for instance? It might be easier to check if youíre not looking in 2 places for each roll. This is further compounded by having weapons that replace the Ranged stat. It would be better if this was put into the modelís own stats. Again, if their ďbaseĒ Ranged stat is different and needed for a campaign, that could be listed in the notes.


    Goblins Banggit seems to be missing the actual effect of its area effect.

    NA Clansman is the name of 2 different units

    NS Thereís no shooting units in the list Ė could you perhaps include spectres so we have something? This is also an issue for undead and orcs

    The Horror seems wrong. The bane chant ability is cool, but the stats donít match the KoW version. It really is the weakest spellcaster possible. 1 attack with melee 6+ and only defense 3+. It never goes anywhere near combat unless very desperate. In this version it has the same armour as a butcher, which is def 5+ in KoW. It it also fast in KoW, move 7. It should probably be a support unit not a warrior.

    Is the Souldrinker meant to be worse in combat than a regular Reaper? That seems an odd choice.

    I like the dread ability, but I was hoping for some translation of mindthirst into the warband. Perhaps starting with the same amount of power as their opponent each turn.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Fyrax. View Post
    NA Clansman is the name of 2 different units
    One is human the other is dwarf.
    I was wondering about the goblin banggit myself.

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    • #3
      I hope the undead get fixed, I am in the process of repainting/painting my warband and I am a little disappointed that the Ghouls speed was reduced by 4" and Necromancer's can't Surge Grunt units now, only Warriors. It makes me a little worried to play with my undead if my guys can't Surge now.

      Comment


      • #4
        I have immediately found an issue with the undead in relation to the surge ability. You can only surge warriors....and there is only one unit type that is a warrior. Therefore the race rule only ever effects one unit type....not so much a race rule, more an individual unit special ability. Also if it did affect more unit types like zombies and skels it would need to be toned down because every unit in 12 inches is a bit much.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Zombieraven View Post
          I have immediately found an issue with the undead in relation to the surge ability. You can only surge warriors....and there is only one unit type that is a warrior. Therefore the race rule only ever effects one unit type....not so much a race rule, more an individual unit special ability. Also if it did affect more unit types like zombies and skels it would need to be toned down because every unit in 12 inches is a bit much.
          I hope it is fixed to allow grunts and if so the range is adjusted or only has an effect on one named unit such as all zombies, ghouls, skeletons when cast.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bloodwild View Post
            One is human the other is dwarf.
            I realize that - but they should still have different unit names - Human Clansman and Dwarf Clansman would be fine.


            I think there's a problem with the ogre list. As it stands, you need to use goblins to make a legal list at 100pts. The starter warband doesn't come with goblins. Indeed the starter warband doesn't come with enough warriors to make any legal list. In KoW you need ogres to be able to take goblins, reversing this for vanguard seems wrong to me.

            Personally I'd drop the 5 warrior/grunt requirement for all lists, but at the very least for ogres. Less than 6 Warrior/grunts leaves you with only 1 of each other type and there are very few lists that can be made without more unlocks, so it's not a very useful rule anyway. I'd also rework the ogres so they can be cheaper. Maybe the unlock system needs rethinking for them.

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            • #7
              I am pretty sure that the Range is about getting ranged weapons in the campaign. The dash means they cannot use them while the value means they can. Perhaps a Parenthesis around them in the case of not having a weapon initially R: (1d8) to make it more apparent.
              Dungeon Saga Content: Unofficial FAQ, Mission Reviews, QuickStart Character Creation Guide, Expanded AI Rules, Pre Made Bosses

              http://twilight40k.blogspot.com/p/so...-saga-ind.html

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              • #8
                Originally posted by eriochrome View Post
                I am pretty sure that the Range is about getting ranged weapons in the campaign. The dash means they cannot use them while the value means they can. Perhaps a Parenthesis around them in the case of not having a weapon initially R: (1d8) to make it more apparent.
                Yeah I'm sure you're right. However grunts shouldn't be given new equipment, I don't think Warriors should be able to learn ranged weapons unless they start with them (and even then I'm iffy). Given how hard it is for DS heroes to learn to use ranged weapons, I wouldn't be unhappy if only some command/support types could take ranged weapons where they couldn't before. Bows require a lot of training; it's not really reasonable to expect just anyone to be able to use one just because they're available. As I said, I think it would be cleaner to put in the notes and leave the only the useful stats in the table.

                There's also inconsistency in the way units that can't use ranged weapons is presented.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by grimshwiz View Post

                  I hope it is fixed to allow grunts and if so the range is adjusted or only has an effect on one named unit such as all zombies, ghouls, skeletons when cast.
                  On the Facebook thread, they said this was likely a typo, and that the intention was for grunts and warriors to be able to be surged.

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                  • #10
                    While we speak about undead, I have (since the alpha), some issue with the "Back from the dead" rule
                    1į)Does it affect grunts ?
                    They do have the undead special rule, but on the other side, grunts do not test nerve and are immediately removed from play.

                    So what happens when an undead grunt (a zombie or a skeleton) is reduced to exactly 0 wound
                    a) is it removed from play as any grunt ?
                    b) is it considered as "Down but not out"

                    2į) does the rule should be read as follow:
                    While the warband is not broken, all UNDEAD models that are reduced to EXACTLY zero wounds, automatically pass their Nerve test with a Down but not out result.
                    Once the warband is broken however, all UNDEAD models that are reduced to zero (or fewer) wounds, automatically fail their Nerve test with a Too much damage result
                    or
                    While the warband is not broken, all UNDEAD models that are reduced to zero (or fewer) wounds, automatically pass their Nerve test with a Down but not out result.
                    Once the warband is broken however, all UNDEAD models that are reduced to zero (or fewer) wounds, automatically fail their Nerve test with a Too much damage result
                    Last edited by lukyluke_147; 14-02-2018, 08:26 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lukyluke_147 View Post
                      While we speak about undead, I have (since the alpha), some issue with the "Back from the dead" rule
                      1į)Does it affect grunts ?
                      They do have the undead special rule, but on the other side, grunts do not test nerve and are immediately removed from play.

                      So what happens when an undead grunt (a zombie or a skeleton) is reduced to exactly 0 wound
                      a) is it removed from play as any grunt ?
                      b) is it considered as "Down but not out"
                      The answer Matt gave in the alpha was try it both ways, though I hope it gets cleared up quickly.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        And for your second question - the first interpretation must be correct, otherwise it would be impossible to kill an undead command model.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Answers in line in red

                          Originally posted by Fyrax. View Post
                          Iíve had a quick look at some of the lists, particularly the Nightstalkers (since I have that army). Iím looking forward to trying out the game. There are a couple of issues Iíve spotted.


                          Can you standardize the way models without ranged attacks have their ranged stats presented? Some have Ra- and Ranged-, some have Ra- and Ranged 1D8. Some have a Ra and Ranged but no equipment. Coming from KoW it would be great if units without ranged weaponry had no ranged stats Ė if they can gain ranged equipment in campaigns a note about their new ranged stats would be better. a - means the model can never take a weapon. Having an Ra stat means they can be given equipment at some point. I'll look at seeing if there's a better way of doing it.

                          Have you tried combining Ra/Ranged and Me/melee into one box, so 7+/1D8 or 1/7+ for instance? It might be easier to check if youíre not looking in 2 places for each roll. This is further compounded by having weapons that replace the Ranged stat. It would be better if this was put into the modelís own stats. Again, if their ďbaseĒ Ranged stat is different and needed for a campaign, that could be listed in the notes. It#s something I'd thought about doing. The final card layout isn't complete so it can be changed at this point to combine them


                          Goblins Banggit seems to be missing the actual effect of its area effect.oops - I'll sort out an update

                          NA Clansman is the name of 2 different units - I'll clear that up

                          NS Thereís no shooting units in the list Ė could you perhaps include spectres so we have something? This is also an issue for undead and orcs. Orcs don't have shooting generally as a race. The full list will have a skulk in it though and probably a fire bomber or something. If it becomes a real issue in the basic lists I'll juggle stuff around. For undead for now, use the archer from the alpha rules.

                          The Horror seems wrong. The bane chant ability is cool, but the stats donít match the KoW version. It really is the weakest spellcaster possible. 1 attack with melee 6+ and only defense 3+. It never goes anywhere near combat unless very desperate. In this version it has the same armour as a butcher, which is def 5+ in KoW. It it also fast in KoW, move 7. It should probably be a support unit not a warrior. The horror is different to the KoW version on purpose. The KoW one will likely change in 3rd ed. Banechant in Vanguard is a passive, always on ability rather than a spell, so the horror lurks around the other fighters, giving them a boost. Throwing it in to combat is something you do if you really have to.

                          Is the Souldrinker meant to be worse in combat than a regular Reaper? That seems an odd choice. Yes, I wanted a version that gained command but was weaker in combat so that players had to more careful when using it.

                          I like the dread ability, but I was hoping for some translation of mindthirst into the warband. Perhaps starting with the same amount of power as their opponent each turn. The idea behind the NS list is to translate mindthirst into something that affects/attacks the Nerve of their opponents. Some of the more advanced units and characters will have more abilities that attack Nerve in this way.
                          "It's going to be like loading a bucket of sick into a rapid-firing bazooka"

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                          • #14
                            re the undead rules:

                            The surging should affect GRUNTS too - that was fixed in the alpha but it looks like an old version snuck into my cards.

                            The correct wording is this one:

                            While the warband is not broken, all UNDEAD models that are reduced to zero (or fewer) wounds, automatically pass their Nerve test with a Down but not out result.
                            Once the warband is broken however, all UNDEAD models that are reduced to zero (or fewer) wounds, automatically fail their Nerve test with a Too much damage result






                            Originally posted by Fyrax. View Post
                            And for your second question - the first interpretation must be correct, otherwise it would be impossible to kill an undead command model.
                            Models on the floor that are killed in Melee are auto-killed.
                            "It's going to be like loading a bucket of sick into a rapid-firing bazooka"

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                            • #15
                              Lower abyssals and AD halfbreed don't have regeneration like they have in KoW, is it intented or an error ?

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