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  • #76
    Originally posted by Rapax View Post

    Me, Att and CS are pretty irrelevant for a spellcaster. High nerve, on the other hand, is always nice to have.

    Lightning bolt is a much more useful spell than Fireball, at least in my opinion.

    Looking at tournament lists, top players seem to only take wizards for Lightning bolt or Bane-chant. And for some armies Surge, but that is not very common.
    Well, the Herd Shamans would take issue with that. Its utility on a wizard (and also a potential way to disrupt a flier that's snuck in the back), so its not irrelevant. As for LB, sure its a better spell, but in this army, most of the ranged power is the short ranged support variety and he can of course supplement that with Bane Chant.

    As for the last bit, I again say do not use the Rats or Ab Dwarves as a baseline. They are most certainly overpowered. Empire of Dust or Nature are better measuring sticks (and not weak armies by any metric) to get reasonable changes. Also, the reason those armies take LB has more to do with the easy access and LB itself having been too good for so long, especially if you play in a kill centric meta. Empire of Dust wizards bring FB to the table to compliment their surge, as one example. The way I see this army, it has really solid chaff pieces (Skylords) and its core combat units are sound, so it needs to win the chaff war. Fireball is a very good tool to that end, along with BC at the usual 15 point price. An elite Sally wizard pretty soundly out classes the elven equivalent for less points and you never hear anyone complaining about elven mages. As stated, its the most effective D5 wizard out there and probably one of the best all around deals on a caster in the game.

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    • #77
      To add my experience to the plus side: My MP's elite fireball comes in handy every game to either help obliterate a tough target alongside an ocean of breath attaks, or finish off a wounded unit with aplomb / torch a support character that is still lurking around. And her D5 is consistently unexpected by my opponents, and I can only assume has kept her in the game more times than not.

      Sometimes I'm a little bothered that I pay 160 points primarily for a Heal(3) that can also surge (like once a game) that can also fireball things (like once a game) that is also inspiring that is probably going to be wandering around come game end not scoring ... but that Heal(3) really does have a lot of utility behind it

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Phazael View Post
        As for the last bit, I again say do not use the Rats or Ab Dwarves as a baseline. They are most certainly overpowered.
        Where in my post did I mention Rats or AbDwarves?

        And if they are so overpowered, why do I keep seeing Elves and Undead at the top of tournament results?

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        • #79
          I guess it is meta dependant. In the bulk of the events I have gone to, it's always rats and ab dwarves with the battle points. Ironically, the one local one day where none were played, salamanders took top battle. The kind of stat bumps being asked for and comparisons being made (shooting monsters, lb spam, cheap regiments, flying chaff) seem to be centered on rational statlines. I am also going to go out on a limb and say the nastier elf armies, bane chant archer walls, got hit pretty hard by CoK. If the dragon is the concern, well I am not sure how to respond to that?

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Phazael View Post

            Well, the Herd Shamans would take issue with that. Its utility on a wizard (and also a potential way to disrupt a flier that's snuck in the back), so its not irrelevant. As for LB, sure its a better spell, but in this army, most of the ranged power is the short ranged support variety and he can of course supplement that with Bane Chant.

            As for the last bit, I again say do not use the Rats or Ab Dwarves as a baseline. They are most certainly overpowered. Empire of Dust or Nature are better measuring sticks (and not weak armies by any metric) to get reasonable changes. Also, the reason those armies take LB has more to do with the easy access and LB itself having been too good for so long, especially if you play in a kill centric meta. Empire of Dust wizards bring FB to the table to compliment their surge, as one example. The way I see this army, it has really solid chaff pieces (Skylords) and its core combat units are sound, so it needs to win the chaff war. Fireball is a very good tool to that end, along with BC at the usual 15 point price. An elite Sally wizard pretty soundly out classes the elven equivalent for less points and you never hear anyone complaining about elven mages. As stated, its the most effective D5 wizard out there and probably one of the best all around deals on a caster in the game.
            because the herd shaman is *good* for its price and options. every herd list will have one, possibly two. every sally list, will not have the same of its own caster. That's because players from different metas and backgrounds have all come to the same logical conclusions.

            i wonder though, what 2-3 mounted mages would do, given enough room to maneuver.
            Last edited by Negator; 20-04-2017, 05:12 PM.

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            • #81
              Probably pretty close to what three mounted herd shamans do, but for less points and with elite, CS1, D5, and more offense. There are units worth criticizing in the Salamander list, but the Mage is pretty much the one least deserving of criticism. Honestly, stick to criticizing the Lancers, certain Gekto units, and the Winged Fire Drakes. Those units deserve more scrutiny.

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              • #82
                fireball 10, bane 2, elite has nothing on heal 5, bane 3, inspiring in the combat centric lists these units support.

                like i said, there is a reason you dont see sally players spamming mages but do see herd players spamming shamans. its not because the salamander players are universally stupid.

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                • #83
                  ---- or maybe its that all the salamander players are Lizardmen holdovers from Fantasy who slap a Slaan on the table and use it as an unmounted mage priest?

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                  • #84
                    Honestly I think the main reason is that inspiring enables you to easily spam the shamans without making sacrifices whereas multiple mage priests eat into your inspiring sources. Same reason few armies spam wizards. Doesn't mean the mage priest is a bad support unit.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Phazael View Post
                      ---- or maybe its that all the salamander players are Lizardmen holdovers from Fantasy who slap a Slaan on the table and use it as an unmounted mage priest?
                      So, all salamander players ARE universally stupid?

                      You cant honestly tell me that of all the warhammer army crossovers there are, only the lizardmen players are afflicted by this debilitating need to pretend they are still playing warhammer.

                      No, that's not what is happening, nor are salamander players stupid. The mage priest isnt bad; by the numbers its very good. It just doesnt fit the current paradigm of "everything must be efficient in order to be good" theme that winning KOW armies have. Perhaps, its not the mage priest that is bad but the army supporting it. That elite fireball would be much more useful if the line units of the army also supported a breath weapon theme effectively. Ember sprites, corsairs, and ghekko hunters are all really poor short range shooters and none of them provide unlocks, so you rarely end up with situations where charging isnt the best option. A piddly breath 10 just doesnt impress in a world of breath 20 efreets, breath 12 inspiring surging priests, heal 7 unicorns, LB 6 beasts and warlocks, and so on. What more, in a more expensive list like salamanders, each character slot is precious.

                      perhaps if it were breath 12, maybe 15. and/Or if its support spells werent the absolute baseline options for such an expensive caster. after the mount and inspiring talisman, bane 2 and heal 3 just feels wrong coming from a 145 point model.

                      Originally posted by Myriad6 View Post
                      Honestly I think the main reason is that inspiring enables you to easily spam the shamans without making sacrifices whereas multiple mage priests eat into your inspiring sources. Same reason few armies spam wizards. Doesn't mean the mage priest is a bad support unit.
                      that's precisely why.
                      Last edited by Negator; 21-04-2017, 11:29 AM.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Phazael View Post
                        ---- or maybe its that all the salamander players are Lizardmen holdovers from Fantasy who slap a Slaan on the table and use it as an unmounted mage priest?
                        Nope. That is clearly not what is happening and many of those experienced Salamander players play and have played a number of other armies with totally different play styles and would understand how to adapt anyway. That is just throwing out excuses or speculating. Those same sally players in early play testing were running armies with lots of Lekelidon and possibly Komodons with flying drake mounted clan lords and such and sometimes not even running a mage simply because the army already had enough piercing and crushing strength and did not need a mage (no role for magic defense). The play style was very different from sallies in whfb; so why would they have such supposed difficulty now? Besides, there were at least a few different viable competitive play styles and themed builds in WHFB that were quite different.

                        It is not that sallies armies cannot compete at all and cannot win at all; it is just that they clearly are a second tier army lacking certain point efficient options to deal with the current meta efficiently. There are maybe at the equivalent of about a 100 points disadvantage on average which can be overcome by good play and luck at times. Ironically, limiting monsters and war machines to 3 max hurt the army because of the loss of ability to spam Lekelidons which, while not as cheap and not as potent as they were in the beta lists, but had an important dual role of mid range shooting and reduction of opposing chaff and units and acting as chaff to prevent combo charges on the bigger and less flexible hordes.

                        I agree that the point cost of the mage is not a primary issue for the army but it does make a surge based themed army (to utilize the fire elemental units and monsters) too costly to efficiently run. I suspect sallies would be better with cheaper utility mages where putting inspiring on them and having them simply dedicated to casting is enough. However, I do not understand the comparison to the Elf mage. The Elf mage is 15 points CEHEAPER and comes with heal 3 and can take a fireball for 10 points. So, the Elf mage with a fireball is 85 points. An Elf mage with heal and bane chant (traditional options prior to COK17) cost 90 points where a Mage-Priest costs 90 with just the fireball. Yes, the Mage-Priest gets +1D and +1A and CS (for two attacks!) but I'd take the bane chant + heal combo over fireball in terms of utility. Also, the Elf Mage has +1Sp which actually is useful in this game in terms of getting in position to heal or buff something and being able to get away from a threat. So, your are paying 15 points more for the sally mage for basically very little value in practice since putting a mage in combat is usually a last resort in this game, especially with a fireball 10.
                        Last edited by Lurcker2; 21-04-2017, 06:38 PM.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Negator View Post
                          The mage priest isnt bad; by the numbers its very good. It just doesnt fit the current paradigm of "everything must be efficient in order to be good" theme that winning KOW armies have.
                          That is a very succinct way to describe the emergent KOW meta, which is similar to but a little more nuanced then the late WHFB one of "take only obviously good things, and many of them".

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                          • #88
                            So an inexpensive D5 mage with high nerve, elite, a decent base spell, and access to all the key in game spells does not fit the army?

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                            • #89
                              I would love to see a cheap Ghekkotah spellcaster of some kind. Maybe base Lightning Bolt (3) with Vicious, around 55-60 points, like a Goblin Wiz or KoM Wizard

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Phazael View Post
                                So an inexpensive D5 mage with high nerve, elite, a decent base spell, and access to all the key in game spells does not fit the army?

                                Incorrect. reference: math, as cited previously.

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