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  • #46
    This and a printer and a note pad is perfect for play testing
    Last edited by Desert Fox; 09-01-2018, 03:31 AM.

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    • #47
      So are you bringing the Elven gunline your talking down? It's fine if you are. Just be honest about and it's effectiveness.
      150+, 4+ to hit elite Elves shots that evaporate units as the come across the board. (Go with KIn for the Gargoyles chaff and Basusu).

      I have seen plenty of high shot Elves win events.

      The only reason why I bring it up is. They took the Bane Chant away from affecting shooting Hordes by saying you needed 2 successes. Then kind of gave it back. I mentioned Elves specifically because of the elite rule affecting the roll.
      What's the math on the success. It's only one horde. It cost 40pts true but an Elven Horde with Heart Seeker does 10 wounds to a Defense 4 unit and 6 to a Defense 5 unit a ture. Pretty good.

      No big deal.

      I personally feel that gunlines take less skill to play and are not fun for your opponent. Games IMO should be won by out-maneuvering your opponent. In a Bobby Fisher type way. Anybody can roll dice.

      No offense. Good Luck. I also play test the same way as you. It's the best way. Easy clean up too. I'll be play testing against that Elven gunline as well.

      Saw that game on Youtube where you shot off Dan Kings Herd.

      Last edited by PhiNelson; 09-01-2018, 03:17 PM.

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      • #48
        Phil:
        I did not talk it down, I pointed out that the Goblins do it better. Name how many people won major GTs with Elves? Then I name how many people done it with Goblins. The game I defeated Dan King, I was running Empire of Dust. It was also before RC went to work toning down shooting. When I talked about Bobby Fisher, I was bringing up how he practiced. I be honest I doubt I add in the new bane 3 combo.98% positive. If I play Kin I will not run a single Gargoyle troop. Ba'su'u a different story though.

        Off the top of my head... Shannon Shoemaker, Jeff O'Neal, Cyle Pool, Chris James and Erick Towbridge all won GT in 2017 running Goblins.

        Last edited by Desert Fox; 09-01-2018, 04:54 PM.

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        • #49
          Elves- Kings of Winter 2017 winning list played by Keith Randall Dec 2017
          Elves- 1st Overall at Crossroads GT 2017 list by Allen Beuhner Sept 2017


          Elves - Mountaineer 2017 winning list played by George O'Connell (lol)


          List of Infamy- 30 second search, I am sure there are more. I think Corey Rynolds won U.S Clash of Kings with them as well at Adepticon 2016.
          http://theomnipotentorcling.com/the-lists-of-infamy

          Of course I admit that more people have won with Goblins. I personally think Elves do it better. I think you do as well or you would be playing Goblins.

          It's all good. The Dan King game- was kind of a gunline game is why I brought it up. 3 allied Trombones was it?

          I am just trying to promote the type of play I enjoy.
          If you like playing gunlines so be it. I don't like playing gunlines and I am not alone so anything that hits them is a plus for me.
          I am being honest at least. I am not going to comment on it anymore. Things can get out of hand.

          I like the CoK 2018 from what I have heard so far.
          Last edited by PhiNelson; 09-01-2018, 04:58 PM.

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          • #50
            Phil if it helps, my next project is Goblins! (even after CoK 2018)

            Not looking to create any kind of drama either. Yes, I added in the War Trombones. The key to that list was to shoot units and then Surge others into combat. Like all my lists very hard build. By the way Cory a strong player in any system. Do not be surprised is he ends up winning the Masters. He been added as a Merc for the West Coast squad.
            Last edited by Desert Fox; 09-01-2018, 06:32 PM.

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            • #51
              Were Godspeakers with an Orcling battery enough of an issue to warrant the nerf? Also im gonna have to go back through my Orc Guide again arent I....

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Grimmor View Post
                Were Godspeakers with an Orcling battery enough of an issue to warrant the nerf? Also im gonna have to go back through my Orc Guide again arent I....
                Nope. Orcs didn't have that much going for them, but what can you do. But things like Rat Shock Troops stay the same. Um...yeah....
                To defend: this is the pact. But when life loses its meaning and is taken for naught,then the pact is to avenge!

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                • #53
                  Yeah its amusing that Rats actually got buffed in this rule pack update. I also find it amusing that they keep dancing around the Wings issue (F20 Individual heroes are bad for the game) with things like the Placo nerf, removing Herja from the game, the Baz nerf, and all the prior Pharaoh/Vamp nerfs but keep leaving the Wings item in the game. Just remove the damn wings already.

                  I like most of the new spells, but I think Martyr is basically pointless (good armies all pretty much get healing direct from the tap), outside of it being on the new Trident hero.

                  I was sad to see BoK go away, as I think it made a lot of glass cannon units viable (Wurm Riders, many Cav units, ect), but I am assuming that's collateral nerf damage from all of the Werewolf/Fallen spamming that went on last year.

                  Escorcled armor is.... useless? I mean what hero on foot that would be taken doesn't already have De5 already? Is someone going to slap this on their wizard with Grif Banner, Inspiring Talisman, Dark Crown, ect out there?

                  Healing Brew nerf is funny and pretty much means it will always get used the first turn the unit begins play in a damaged state. I assume they are concerned about it comboing with the Martyr spell?

                  The small buffs to underused units are nice, here and there, but I do think a couple may have missed the mark (outside of the chariot ones, which are spot on). Sylph Riders are still massively expensive for their low Defense and Nerve and increasing their attacks does not really solve that issue. Depth Horrors were already probably one of the best deals in the Trident army with amazing nerve, so I think making them fearless is too strong. The Elven Noble Chariot getting nimble makes it basically equal, if not superior, to every on foot infantry ranged hero in shooting while also having pretty decent combat ability, at least at his current cost of 90 when stacked against any other hero choice capable of both fighting and shooting. The goblin king on chariot with nimble has a similar issue, probably, the Noble War Chariot is simply more noticeable because it costs less than most combat/shooting heroes on foot for most armies.

                  Overall, I do like most of the tweaks, but am reserving full judgement until I see the unit strength nerfs and new scenarios.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Phazael View Post

                    Escorcled armor is.... useless? I mean what hero on foot that would be taken doesn't already have De5 already? Is someone going to slap this on their wizard with Grif Banner, Inspiring Talisman, Dark Crown, ect out there?

                    .
                    I thought the same but then looked at some armies I am considering. There are a few options. Clearly, Grif Banner, etc. is good but there are heroes you might run as infantry that are well worth considering on foot and with specialized roles. Naiad Salker and Elf Master Hunter are interesting choices if you play them. With the regen and relatively high nerve, I could see a Liche King being given De5+ and acting as a tarpit to certain units. Also, an offensive wizard like a TK mage on foot might still make sense. I think that the best use is a higher nerve individual on foot with perhaps regen and De4+ already that would tend at times to roam away from other units or be useful as a chaff blocker function and able to possibly.

                    Generally, the Medallion is still a much better option for a mounted king/general/krudger/overmaster with De5+ or 6+ and decent nerve (instead of wings or in addition to a winged character) to give it a bit more staying power.

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                    • #55
                      You can rule out the shooty heroes immediately, because those rely on stealth, nimble, and other tricks. And are you going to pick D5 on a wizard, who likely dies if caught anyhow, over the three or four other no brainers? And banner guys are always going to slot griff or the ukulele of insufficient light. That item should have read "Individual infantry without fly, this putz gets big shield" then it would have been woth consideration. Even then, likely not because no one cares about D6 on a guy on foot.

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                      • #56
                        Not sure. I'm not saying the ensorcelled armour is going to be used a lot. It would have more potential use/value if allowed for any model with individual rule, including cav, because of models like the Centaur Chief, Beserker Lord, and Exempler Hunter which are De4+ and the utility of a greater speed mounted hero that goes out to take stuff on and would like to increase the chance of survival. Even mounted mages with fireballs would be worth considering boosting to De5+ because they get exposed to spell attacks and other similar stuff.

                        But there are quite a few heroes and even mages where an increase to De5+ could have good utility as a redirector or to serve a role charging to cause disorder or to take out chaff combat unit.) Still, I think there is value and could easily see someone giving the Efreet De5+ or the Abyssal Temptress (which has the fly option without an artifact) De5+. The Varangur Cursed Son is a lot better with De5+ (very offensive). One could also look at heroes like the Blight Lord, Abbess, Thuul Mythican (Sp 6 and sel-inspiring now), Undead Liche King (high nerve and regen makes improving defense more valuable both to reduce chance of waiver and to increase benefits of lifeleech and regen), and all the Assassins.
                        The Assassins generally come with De4+ and giving them De5+ in case they get in combat or get hit by spells or shooting is worthwhile if you have the points given their cost. .

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                        • #57
                          My kin assassins have much better items to be taking than armor. If they are getting shot at, then I am fine thanks to two layers of shooting defense (stealthy and induvial). If they are getting punched in the face then something went wrong or I just dont care. In the end my boys are using things like jar of four winds or boots of levation, because those serve much better than a pip of def.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Geist View Post
                            My kin assassins have much better items to be taking than armor. If they are getting shot at, then I am fine thanks to two layers of shooting defense (stealthy and induvial). If they are getting punched in the face then something went wrong or I just dont care. In the end my boys are using things like jar of four winds or boots of levation, because those serve much better than a pip of def.
                            Valid point, I was just saying that the ensorcelled armour is not useless but often other artifact choices will have more perceived value and crowd out that option. The real problem is that the handful to a dozen individual heroes most likely to benefit from ensorcelled armourr are either typically run with the option of being mounted (ruling that option out), have better artifact options as well, or are not often run in armies.

                            In my experience, assassins were not effective enough for the risks, but that was because I was seeing too many flying and mounted individuals capable of disordering and killing it and breath weapons, LBs, fireballs, etc able to take it out in one turn before it does much of anything (maybe gets 2 damage on something turn one and then is routed). You can argue that takes away from something else dying early on but I could get more utility from those other things for fewer points relative to assassin with the Jar or Boots (which is a lot of points for 4 attacks on a TK assassin). The new COK2018 with the rules for stealthy gaining cover to breath attacks, fireballs, bloodboil, and LBs may change that calculation quite a bit since three of those 4 types of "shooting/spell" attacks plus faster combat individuals were the bane of the assassin and stealthy reduces the hit rates accordingly. Having played a bit with Efreets with boots (can use terrain better due to pathfinder) and the abyssal temptress (self-inspiring), I can fully appreciate the frustration people may have with these fast individuals if they don't have the tools and especially the ones with stealthy but, even with stealthy, I was not impressed with the amount of threat and damage presented for a unique that does not count for scoring in many scenarios and can't hold objectives given its nerve and De.

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                            • #59
                              You under estimate the power of hitting on 3+ with piercing 1 from 24 inches away able to move around the battle field freely and easily. I can not tell you how many times he has saved my line from a war trombone or another warmachine. You only need average rolls to get a waiver from one round of shooting. Two turns sees one dead. Your problem is you are once again thinking in cost and effect of cost. Yes it is a 145pt unit hunting down 60-100pt warmachines, but thats not the actual cost. The cost is the damage other units might take that hes preventing. A breath attack on a dragon for example. Just as you cant roll dice in a void like so many do with game theory about dice rolls, you cant vaule a units cost in a void. Just like the battle field all the cost are tied together. My 145pt model is more than like saving me over 600pts in the way of damages and losses over the course of 1-6 turns.

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                              • #60
                                The Pharoh Vamp nerfs where necessary. As much as i loved my Def 6+ Pharoh, they where ridiculously hard to shift. I once had one take three turns of cannon fire to the face before he died.

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