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  • The Griffon formation.

    This was posted waaay back on the Warhammer Empire forum. I found it very inspiring at the time as I really enjoy tactical articles

    http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum...?topic=42921.0

    This is how I'd translate it to KOW.
    The first formation is the fighting block. You could swap the Foot Guard Horde for Berserkers and get slightly more damage out of them, but that would mean saving points elsewhere. Possibly swap a bowman troop for a hero on a horse
    The second formation also has 2 chances of bane chant which when using the new COK rules gives you a greater chance to get piercing on the arquebusiers.

    Formation 1
    Bowmen troop 75pts
    Bowmen troop 75pts
    Crossbowman troop 85pts
    Pole Arm Regiment 100pts
    Foot Guard Horde – Great Weapons, Brew of Strength 255pts
    Pole Arm Regiment 100pts
    Wizard – Bane (2), Heal (2) Lightning (3) Shroud of the Saint 100pts
    Battle Standard Bearer – The Healing Charm 80pts

    Formation 2
    Bowman Troop 75pts
    Bowman Troop 75pts
    Pole Arm Regiment 100pts
    Pole Arm Regiment 100pts
    Arquebusiers Horde – Blessing of the Gods 250pts
    Wizard – Bane (2) Lightning (3) Inspiring Talisman 85pts
    Battle Standard Bearer – Lute of Insatiable Darkness 70pts

    Reserves
    General on Winged Beast – Sparkstone 200pts
    Mounted Sergeants – Helm of the Ram 175pts


    Any thoughts on this? Is there too much chaff, and not enough units that can cause damage?
    website - www.basemasters.co.uk

    Painted - 2000pts Undead
    Misc Kingdoms of Men - just under 1000pts and growing!

  • #2
    In my opinion this is a lot of expensive shooting that is easily wavered or blocked. Once combat is started on turn 2/3 I doubt a lot of those shooting elements will have the ability to move around and shoot effectively at the things that aren't in combat. You're footguard horde is the only semi resilient unit in the whole army so they will die first against most people leaving the rest of our army easy to roll over especially against fast combat armies like orcs and ogres. Maybe the magic itiem that gives them +2 defense for a turn will help you out more. The first wizard is also a bit heavy on the the spells for my liking, lighitning bolt for range is great but once things are in combat he's going to want to use the bigger heal he has instead of bane chant otherwise if you just want him for the bane chant drop the shroud and healing for something more useful.

    Comment


    • #3
      Admittedly I'm not usually a huge fan of bowmen, but the option to move (usually turn) and fire is useful. Essentially it's 4 units of chaff that will also ensure that my opponent has to come to me, rather than militia that often just get in the way. I'm happy to tool up mages. Heal only costs 10pts, the switch to lightning is free, and I see Bane Chant as compulsory. Heal 2 feels a bit pathetic, so having the BSB with heal 3 nearby means that I can throw 7 at a unit which is pretty respectable, or else just use 3, and go for the bane chant.

      The second formation I just threw in really so I'd be tempted to drop it altogether, although I like the idea of Elite Arquebusiers.
      website - www.basemasters.co.uk

      Painted - 2000pts Undead
      Misc Kingdoms of Men - just under 1000pts and growing!

      Comment


      • #4
        Hmmm... I think the bowmen chaff could work well. Anti-chaff chaff can be great elements, but you might consider troops of Mounted Scouts for this job as the speed and nimble allows them to do the chaff job much more efficiently.

        I'd consider running your footguard with the Potion of Strength alone, and keeping the full defense characteristic (especially since you have Bane Chant and they’re the best target for that buff). For the mounted sergeants I also might consider the Pipes of Terror instead, lets them act as support element in melee.

        I’m tempted to agree that the first Wizard is over costed, but considering that Lightingbolt is free I think you might be good actually.

        Comment


        • #5
          See how it goes is probably the best plan.

          Personally not a fan of the elite handgunner horde - static shooting hordes are often too easy to disrupt. If going with it at least with 4winds you get another turn of shooting?

          Haven't had much experience using polearm regiments but they are really going to have to do a lot of the fighting in your army.

          The footguard horde is going to get targeted so you need to use the chaff to keep it screened early.

          Comment


          • #6
            If you're just trying to run the bowmen as chaff that could work but they are a bit expensive for what you get for that. moving and firing with them isn't that great since it drops your RA value to 6 which means you'll be hitting around 6 shots with no armor piercing a turn with them. With such low damage output even with their normal shooting characteristic I wouldn't bank on them doing much in regards to wounds.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Greektlake View Post
              If you're just trying to run the bowmen as chaff that could work but they are a bit expensive for what you get for that. moving and firing with them isn't that great since it drops your RA value to 6 which means you'll be hitting around 6 shots with no armor piercing a turn with them. With such low damage output even with their normal shooting characteristic I wouldn't bank on them doing much in regards to wounds.
              Exactly why I advocate the Mounted Scouts

              Comment


              • #8
                Just my 2 sense. I see what your trying to do but try to think how it will do if faced with a massive vanguarding pathfinder attack on a flank, or a big gunline, or if you get attacked by mass of flyers or hordes of knights. I like the 2 wings and reserve concept. I agree with it. But personally I would lose the BSBs and wizards and hordes. Turn the horde of foot guard into 2 troops, lose the crossbowmen. Lose the archers in the 2nd group and take 2 troops of muskets instead of the horde. You still have about the same number of units in your line with more being able to shoot counter charge while having less points and less figures in them. The savings which is like 4-500 points you should build up your reserve. Add knights, siege arty, mounted scouts. Stuff that can get to where it needs to be fast and react to flyers or an overwhelming attack on a flank. I do love your concept but just throwing this out there right or wrong to help you think on improving it.

                Brad

                Comment


                • #9
                  One main difference between the two games seems to be how little time shooting units, especially static ones, can get. More mobile charges, no March blocking, the use of throwaway disrupters etc.

                  Comments above are valid, but I'd at least give it a go before completely changing an idea. The KoM list is really varied and don't think there is a "right" way to play it

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Kingdoms of Men plays distinctively different than Empire inWHFB. Where Empire used infantry to hold off the enemy and allow chickens or guns to kill them, in KoW your infantry has to do the heavy lifting.

                    That said, Kingdoms of Men have decent chaff (bowmen are actually quite good at this, @70 points only militia are cheaper and they don't fire) and okay heroes. (cheap but good price value) Kingdoms of Men anvils are also decent, especially if you take the price into consideration. 165 points for a shield wall horde or 135 for a foot guard regiment is a steal for their resillience.

                    bear in mind that KoM shooting is abysmal. War machines better left at home and the 5+ static shooting of handgunners/crossbows is only good for chaff removal and they get expensive quickly. Better invest in 50-points wizards with just lighting and war banners with lute and breath (10)

                    What Kingdoms lack is a proper hammer. The footguard horde with CS (2) is decent, but will be singled out quite quickly. I'd support it with War beasts or knights (both expensive for their effectivity) but better with allied hammers. Peagsus knights, drakon riders, soul reavers, tortured souls and honour guard are all *much* better than anything KoM has to offer. Sad but true.



                    Another option is not to use the Kingdoms of men list (which is a bit lacking, as above), but the League of Rhordia list which has been modelled after WHFB Empire.

                    Not only that, the list is also distinctively more effective on the battlefield. The list actually does have a good war machine (the volley gun is quite decent for its cost), the list also features a nice defense 6 monster (the iron beast - most often presented using the steam tank) and a great hammer in the form of honour guard. (Chicken knights). This supplements the cheap regiments of infantry and ditto heroes nicely for a well-rounded army.

                    The only thing is that League has quite a lot of halflings. If you're like me, you present the halflings by men of another tribe, a so called "slave race" noted for its unwillingness to fight. (therefore decreased nerve, speed and melee values) and the tendency to drop flat as soon as someone aims a missile weapon at them. (reflecting the stealth rule).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I remember this formation from the old Empire forums too, and I tried it out a couple of times back in the days. I think it can work, but I would only ever run one Griffon formation in a 2000p KoM army. KoM are a bit weak, and if you want to play empire, you should just use Rhordia (I did, but came back to KoM as I decided I wanted a more historical army).

                      I would change the horde to a heavy pike horde, have footguard or polearm troops or regiments on the flank, and use arquebusiers if you want you shooters to do damage, if you just want the chaff then archers are ok.

                      Then I would supplement with knights and mounted scouts on the flanks, maybe some warmachines for range threat, and supporting characters. Do consider a flying melee character, as our lack of flying units tend to hurt us in the movement game. This last part is important, because, as I mentioned above, I do not think the Griffon formation can survive on its own. KoW is more about maneuvers than WFB were, and you need to protect your flanks better, as well as have the ability to threaten your opponent's flanks.
                      Last edited by Francis; 30-06-2017, 09:30 AM.

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                      • #12
                        I don't agree with Vince's statement about war machines being best left at home. 3 ballistae have become a regular feature in my KoM armies, and always carry their weight. Opponent's are forced to either deal with them, or face a game long threat of damage from great range. Sure, they're not going to live up to the gun lines of 8th ed fantasy, but for 180 points their performance is very solid!

                        Looking at the initial list, my first thought was "not enough hammers". There's only really 2 big damage dealing units in the list, and the arquebusiers are too easily neutralised. I think the characters are where too many points are going, maybe by culling them a bit you might find enough points to swap out a pole arm regiment or two for beasts of war.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Agreed about the warmachines. The cannons might be too unreliable to be viable at that price, if they shoot every round they will average out at around 9 hits for that match, but the ballista at 60p is worth it.

                          It will average 8 hits through the match, at 25p less than the cannon, and only 1 less piercing. And that 1 point of piercing will hardly ever matter much, as you still damage D6 units on a 3+, and that forces your opponent to take them into consideration when he moves.

                          I use my small fieldguns as ballista, and always take two.
                          Last edited by Francis; 10-07-2017, 09:43 AM.

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                          • #14
                            This was originally posted over a month ago

                            Cornwall Have you tested out this list yet or some permutation of it?

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                            • #15
                              Not yet. I've only had one game since ( I can only game once every couple of weeks due to work, the kids and jiujitsu taking up most of my free time in the evenings).
                              I tried Rhordia vs Empire of Dust as a friend has bought and assembled the EOD Army Set. Trying this out completely slipped my mind at the time
                              website - www.basemasters.co.uk

                              Painted - 2000pts Undead
                              Misc Kingdoms of Men - just under 1000pts and growing!

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