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  • #16
    Y'all banhammered the hammer? That's meta...

    HAH GET IT? META? Buwahahahah!

    (For the record, Weakness did little for me in the huge sample of three games I had it in, but the Helm of the Rams on my earth elemental horde was ballin)

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    • #17
      I really like the new items that level the field between a lot of different units, opening up more list options. The lute for example opens up a lot of heroes that can take the place of a wizard. Hammer boosts units with lots of attacks, but no CS/TC, ram helps units that need just that little damage boost etc.

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      • #18
        One thing I will say about items like the Hammer, Lute, Brew of Strength, and Ram Helm is that they continue the trend of generally marginalizing the Defense stat in this game. This further solidifies Nerve as the only stat that matters, especially when there is plentiful ranged options. Being D6 matters a lot less when a player can have on demand CS2 or equivalent where he needs it, but having more nerve is always universally good. I feel like the item choices in CoK all continued that trend (and they even removed the most common defensive items) to a large degree, including adding a Rally item that probably should have been restricted to heroes only.

        The only spell that I think is actually strong, though, is Soul Drain and that is purely because it grants access to healing in armies that lack the capacity to heal their units, normally (Trident being the biggest example). The other spells are too situational or clunky to use elegantly. I mean, I want to like Weakness, but not being able to cast it into combat and not being stackable makes it extremely situational in its use.

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        • #19
          That's probably why they put Weakness in the game. 18" range is a solid distance for a debuff, and it counteracts some of the CS/TC/Piercing in the game.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Phazael View Post
            The only spell that I think is actually strong, though, is Soul Drain and that is purely because it grants access to healing in armies that lack the capacity to heal their units, normally (Trident being the biggest example). The other spells are too situational or clunky to use elegantly. I mean, I want to like Weakness, but not being able to cast it into combat and not being stackable makes it extremely situational in its use.
            I agree that Soul Drain's a strong spell, personally i think that it works best in armies who already have plentiful access to heal, as I find that Heal is either something I invest in heavily or not at all. But that's just my play style.

            I agree that not being abel to cast weakness into combat is tough. I've found it incredibly useful, but I think that's because it suits my army and my list (FoN).
            I can cast Weakness on a unit before surging elementals in, getting around the "not into combat" restriction and its very useful against shooting hordes.
            Elliot M

            "There you go again, cheating by using the rules correctly!"

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Phazael View Post
              The hammer is godlike. The guys claiming it stinks are the guys who either run nothing but CS/BC spam or spam D6 and don't want other people taking it. On the rare occasion that you do fight D3, you generally lose a wound or two. Against D4, you break even. Against EVERYTHING ELSE, you benefit for less than the Brew of Strength costs. This is especially true for units with massed attacks and vicious or who normally depend solely on TC to do harm. The hammer turns just about any large attack cavalry unit from glass cannon into a grinder. And lets be honest, the whole "its worse against D3" is a garbage argument, since what few D3 units you see out there tend to be of the chump chaff variety, anyhow.
              That's a bit over the top I think.

              Actually, the hammer does not break even against D4. Not only do you pay points (and the opportunity cost of having used your one artifact slot) to gain nothing, thereby making it a worse choice than having no item at all. By having the hammer equipped you lose the ability of casting bane-chant on that unit. I.E another opportunity cost.

              Against D5, the hammer is marginally better than a brew of strength since it's slightly cheaper, but compared to the brew that unit is now worse against everything def 4 or 3.
              I'm a bit surprised at such a flippant disregard of the very real chance of facing def 3 units and thus paying points to be worse (!). Many def 3 units aren't the cream of the crop, but some (like succubi) are still very dangerous, and more importantly, the chump variety often have the role of eating damage and lasting a long time, which they get a lot better at if the enemy does damage on 4+. Suddenly facing a zombie legion that you wound on 4+, and paying points for the privilege, is not my idea of a good time for one of my elite units.

              Personally, the hammer is far, far down on my list of Items I consider, and banning it in a player-group sounds like a real knee-jerk reaction that should definitely be reconsidered.

              I am glad though that there is such variation of attitudes towards the hammer. That's when armybuilding is really fun. When two people can try to pick the options they think are best and come up with completely different results.
              Last edited by Zywus; 21-04-2017, 12:14 PM.
              So long and thanks for all the Brains - My undead painting log on the Mantic forum

              Zywus' log of random KoW stuff

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              • #22
                Phazael you might have missed the fact that high defense has been very overrepresented in the general meta and needed to be toned down.

                The remaining def6 units like earth elementals or obsidian golems are stilll very good units for their respective armies, and nobody will pretend that having def5+ is not nice.

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                • #23
                  The D6 thing was mainly an issue with enscorcelled armor on monster heroes and stuff like the flying pharoah, both of which got nerfed. Outside of obsidian golem spam, is there a top tier army that has abundant D6?

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                  • #24
                    Undead can field quite a big chunk of D6 if you take a lot of Wraiths and Soul-Reaver cav. But it's true that D6 can be assumed to be seen a lot less commonly post-CoK. Which is generally a good thing IMO as it makes D6 feel more special and it makes units without CS or TC more viable.

                    A lesser preponderance of D6 means the viability of the hammer of measured force is lessened however so I'm not quite sure how you can come to the conclusion of the hammer being "godlike" in the post-CoK world.
                    So long and thanks for all the Brains - My undead painting log on the Mantic forum

                    Zywus' log of random KoW stuff

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                    • #25
                      Not disagreeing, just saying that Nerve is now really the only stat that matters, definitively.

                      As for the hammer, its been discussed, but it is a godsend for any slow unit with lots of non-CS attacks to give it an edge from the numerous mobile D5 units that exist. The amount of board threat projection it has in my wife's army (she puts it on a Bas Chariot Horde in larger games) is really ridiculous. And the days of chump blocking a spear/berserker horde out with a mobile D5 monster are basically over. It eliminates all of the bad matchups those units used to have. It is to those units what the Caterpillar Potion is to nearly every cavalry unit in the game.

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                      • #26
                        I find it a bit funny how you can claim Nerve is the only stat that matter and then in the very same post praise the hammer artifact especially designed to bypass good defence. How can those mobile D5 units "chump block" a spear/berserker horde if Nerve is all that matters? Infantry hordes have more nerve than anyone else. It's their thing basically.

                        The survivability of a unit almost doubles against non TC/CS attacks if it goes from D4 to D6, so against such attacks, defense is obviously a stat that matter. Even against attacks with two points of CS/TC, a unit with D6 is almost twice as survivable as a D4 one (assuming the same nerve obviously). Attacks that reduce defence with three or more points do indeed exist, but they're not incredibly common, even if we take into account the possibility of BC turning a Piercing (2) or CS (2) attack into a piercing or CS (3) one


                        The hammer:
                        Against D5, the hammer is nothing but a slightly cheaper brew of strength (with potential drawbacks). I can possibly see it being used on a unit with no CS or TC and with no source of BC in the army. And even then I'd only ever take it after the brew is already taken somewhere else. And never on anything slow, since as soon as the enemy get a chance to pick the matchup, that hammer unit will, if possible, end up fighting a unit with D4 or less making you pay points to deal less damage.

                        Putting the hammer of measured force on a horde of Basilean panther chariots seems like a colossal waste. Removing the chariot's ability to ever get use out of their TC.
                        Last edited by Zywus; 21-04-2017, 11:26 PM.
                        So long and thanks for all the Brains - My undead painting log on the Mantic forum

                        Zywus' log of random KoW stuff

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                        • #27
                          I am saying the Hammer strengthens that position, because with recent crackdowns on Defense, the standard Caterpillar Potion Knight Regiment is pretty much the main threat to slow moving infantry. Its yet another way for units to bypass defense in a game flush with them.

                          As for the hammer on the chariots, ordinarily I would agree, but TC is so easily shut down in the first place. The hammer turns that unit into a very good grinder, especially with all the Heal 6 Phoenixes zipping around, and a M9 one no less. I am of the opinion that the hammer might be best on a fast moving unit with a decent volume of attacks that relies on TC, especially if it has some form of reroll mechanics. This lets you get the hammer where it will do the most damage and chew up any D5 solo mounted hero who thinks they can cripple you just by tapping you for a wound. In my experience, calling something a waste of TC is a lot like calling something a waste of Headstrong. Sure, it helps occasionally, but against a good player there is almost never a time where you are going to get use out of the ability when it matters.

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                          • #28
                            Match a horde of berserkers up against the ram unit and laugh.

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                            • #29
                              I think the RC has made an excellent job with the new items, making them good enough to guarantee that they will see play, without being overpowered.

                              The hammer is obviously meant to counter D6, which I am totally fine with. Sure, it also provides an additional weapon against armies that rely on D5, which might not be needed as much. I mean, it's not like Orcs or Salamanders need to be taken down a peg. But since it has such a harsh downside, I don't think the hammer is close to being OP.

                              The banner is almost an auto-include, but in the same way as caterpillar, inspiring talisman and brew of strength already are. Neither of them is meta warping, like the armour, medallion or keen-eyeness was.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Rapax View Post
                                The banner is almost an auto-include

                                This is an interesting one because I was of the same mindset. Since the banner came out, it's been in every army list I've written.

                                However, it was fairly uncommon in the last tournament I went to. About half the players took the new lute but less than a quarter took the banner. I don't know if that will change going forward, I know I'll be using it on a regular basis.

                                So yeah, I was surprised by that one.

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