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Beating Nasty Elves

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  • Beating Nasty Elves

    Hey all,

    My area looks like it's going elf-heavy with the CoK'18 changes giving them some sweet tools at their disposal (they're looking to be top tier around her under some very good generals). As an example list, this is pretty much what kinda list I'll be running into (plus/minus some item changes):

    x1 Archers Horde - Piercing
    x1 Palace Guard Regiment
    x1 Forest Shamblers Regiment
    x1 Drakon Riders Horde - Brew of Strength
    x1 Chariots Horde - Pathfinder
    x1 Dragon Breath
    x1 Elven Mage - Bc2 + Black Iron Crown (to make those archers equivalent to Ogre Shooters with elite AND old brew of keen eye...)
    x2 Noble War Chariots (Freakin' amazing units now)
    x1 Dragon Kindred Lord - Haste
    x1 Green Lady

    I was wondering how best to handle a list like that? My current list is:

    x1 Blacksouls Horde - Brew of Strength (Mutated Doggy)
    x2 Immortals Regiment - 2h Weapons (Mutated Doggies)
    x1 Gargoyles Troop
    x1 Halfbreeds Regiment - Pathfinder
    x1 Grotesques Horde - Brew of Haste
    x2 Dragonfire Teams
    x1 Overmaster on Dragon - Blade of slashing
    x1 Slavedriver - BC2
    x1 Basusu
    x1 Brakki Barka

    I thought about going golem heavy, but I think that only works well for the shooting elves and not necessarily the more balanced elf lists that I may come across (like above). This list takes advantage of the powerful heroes to either 1) shut down multiple sources of shooting or 2) Multicharge and take out key targets together (Basusu, Brakki, and Dragon = 22 attacks hitting on 3s, and mostly wounding on 2s with vicious). However, the Centerline is there for more survivability in scenarios (and against armies that aren't necessarily elves).

    How would this list fare against them? Are there changes I can make to better the list against elves (or just better the list in general)? How would you personally go about facing them? Elves are probably my worst match-up, so any help would be greatly appreciated!

  • #2
    That's a pretty tough matchup for your list (which I like in general, except for low US). Advance up with your infantry using cover to limit the shooting's effectiveness as best you can, rush all your fast stuff up on one wing, slip Basusu behind his lines, and maybe hold the other flank with the dragon. That would be my battleplan, but the problem I see is you only have 14 US by my count, so his shooting only needs to pickup a few units to put you behind the 8-ball. Also, you have relatively low defense on the Immortal Guard and no healing, so anything he lands is going to stick.

    One weakness the elf list has that I can see is the lack of a combat individual. It would be very difficult for him to shut down shooting that outranges his. He would have to commit his dragon basically to do that. Another weakness is low crushing strength.

    There is a list my clubmate has ran in the past winning at least one South GT and placing well in others which would be pretty effective against this list I think:

    x1 Decimator Horde
    x2 Immortal Guard Regiments w/ dogs
    x2 Gargoyles Troop
    x2 Lesser Obsidian Golem Hordes
    x3 Angkor Heavy Mortars
    x1 Slavedriver
    x2 Supreme Iron-Casters on Great Winged Halfbreed

    15 points left, over maybe Veil of Shadows on one of the Iron-casters.

    The deployment is basically this:

    Screen Shot 2018-02-08 at 2.38.26 PM.png

    He gets to shoot at Def 6 golems or Def 5 Immortal Guard, which are then healed by the Supreme Iron-casters with Heal (8) combined.

    Unless he wants to risk 3 Angkor mortars shooting for 6 turns, he will have to commit a dragon or drakon horde instead of using them to play the counter-punch game he wants to play with them. When he does though, he either gets chaffed by gargoyles and/or gets hit by fireball (20) from the Iron-casters plus 25 piercing 1 shots from the Decimators who flip around. There is also the possibility of surging the golems into a flank or rear.

    His speed advantage is negated by the decimators and dogs on the Immortal Guard in the center and the surging golems on either flank.

    The US is increased from 14 to 17 even with the 3 mortars and has four flyers for late turn objective grabbing.

    That is the list I would bring against the Elves. It sounds like you could basically do this as you have golems and at least one dragon already (and I don't think anyone will care if you call your blacksouls decimators-its the only dwarf infantry horde in the list).

    Seems like it would work, might be worth trying out.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Toman226 View Post
      That's a pretty tough matchup for your list (which I like in general, except for low US). Advance up with your infantry using cover to limit the shooting's effectiveness as best you can, rush all your fast stuff up on one wing, slip Basusu behind his lines, and maybe hold the other flank with the dragon. That would be my battleplan, but the problem I see is you only have 14 US by my count, so his shooting only needs to pickup a few units to put you behind the 8-ball. Also, you have relatively low defense on the Immortal Guard and no healing, so anything he lands is going to stick.

      One weakness the elf list has that I can see is the lack of a combat individual. It would be very difficult for him to shut down shooting that outranges his. He would have to commit his dragon basically to do that. Another weakness is low crushing strength.

      There is a list my clubmate has ran in the past winning at least one South GT and placing well in others which would be pretty effective against this list I think:

      x1 Decimator Horde
      x2 Immortal Guard Regiments w/ dogs
      x2 Gargoyles Troop
      x2 Lesser Obsidian Golem Hordes
      x3 Angkor Heavy Mortars
      x1 Slavedriver
      x2 Supreme Iron-Casters on Great Winged Halfbreed

      15 points left, over maybe Veil of Shadows on one of the Iron-casters.

      The deployment is basically this:

      Screen Shot 2018-02-08 at 2.38.26 PM.png

      He gets to shoot at Def 6 golems or Def 5 Immortal Guard, which are then healed by the Supreme Iron-casters with Heal (8) combined.

      Unless he wants to risk 3 Angkor mortars shooting for 6 turns, he will have to commit a dragon or drakon horde instead of using them to play the counter-punch game he wants to play with them. When he does though, he either gets chaffed by gargoyles and/or gets hit by fireball (20) from the Iron-casters plus 25 piercing 1 shots from the Decimators who flip around. There is also the possibility of surging the golems into a flank or rear.

      His speed advantage is negated by the decimators and dogs on the Immortal Guard in the center and the surging golems on either flank.

      The US is increased from 14 to 17 even with the 3 mortars and has four flyers for late turn objective grabbing.

      That is the list I would bring against the Elves. It sounds like you could basically do this as you have golems and at least one dragon already (and I don't think anyone will care if you call your blacksouls decimators-its the only dwarf infantry horde in the list).

      Seems like it would work, might be worth trying out.
      First off, thank you for such an explicit response! A lot of details that I really appreciate! I actually updated my current list to take out Brakki and put in a horde of Slave Orcs + another slavedriver to bring up the US a bit, but it still runs into the same issues you described.

      I like that list a lot! I'll definitely have to test it out for sure. Seems like a good counter to them! I'm interested to see how the decimators work too! I never really thought of them as an answer to elves. I need to paint up some golems as soon as I get home from work... :P

      Comment


      • #4
        Just seeing whether I can steal this setup for another army. Do heavy mortars need line of sight?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Rakkoon View Post
          Just seeing whether I can steal this setup for another army. Do heavy mortars need line of sight?
          You do have a rulebook, don't you? Indirect fire. You still need to see your target, but not "line of sight".
          To defend: this is the pact. But when life loses its meaning and is taken for naught,then the pact is to avenge!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Blood axe View Post

            You do have a rulebook, don't you? Indirect fire. You still need to see your target, but not "line of sight".
            Incorrect, line of sight IS part of seeing your target.

            To answer your question Rakkoon Yes, to shoot at a target you have to meet criteria: they have to be in your arc, and you have to have line of sight to them. So if you have ht 1 infantry in front of you, but you are targeting a ht 2 unit, that line of site exists. But if you wanted to fire at an infantry unit with your own ht 1 unit in the way you would not be able to as you would not have any line of sight to the target unit.

            Comment


            • #7
              Yup, Thorgrim is right. (you love hearing that, dont you? )

              You dont get the cover penalty for Indirect Fire, but you still need to see your target. Most are minimum 12 range though.
              Last edited by Blood axe; 13-02-2018, 06:12 PM.
              To defend: this is the pact. But when life loses its meaning and is taken for naught,then the pact is to avenge!

              Comment


              • #8
                Just thinking that the mortar at the bottom will have a hard time seeing anything.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rakkoon View Post
                  Just thinking that the mortar at the bottom will have a hard time seeing anything.
                  Nope, they are there to target cav, LI, LC, Monsters ... generally things that an infantry unit isn't blocking line of sight to.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Aha, the cover game that I need to master. Gotcha.
                    thanks!

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