No announcement yet.

Twilight Elves workaround

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Twilight Elves workaround

    Unfortunately, I didn’t have the opportunity for testing the beta from the start (I did ask the people I knew, but they wouldn’t), which could have had more impact on the rules’ development. But it is about to change soon.
    To make it more exciting than a mere rules test, we want to try to already start with a little campaign. Which would also mean that we’d like to use the actual peoples/races we have (or have started) armies of instead of merely proxing the ones given by the beta files.
    Which leads to this topic.

    The goal is to tweak the Elves list to be more appropriate for Twilight Elves but still useful for the beta testing.
    Bonus points if we get something similar done for Wood Elves.

    The easier part would be looking at and replacing some of the unit entries:
    • Archers, Spears, Gladestalkers (→Shadows), Prince and Citizen Levy can stay as they are.
    • Battle Mage needs its spells adjusted. The obvious thought would be to replace Heal by Fireball, but wouldn’t it make the mage less versatile and as such weaker because of the redundancy of all three spells being plainly damage? Should the latter one be replaced, too? (By what?)
    • Cats would be replaced by Gargoyles from the abyssal list. Both are non-elves, both support, no further work needed.
      Shamblers, being monstrous infantry or in Vanguard terms “Large”, have no equivalent on the twilight side, so they would need to be replaced by whatever we find. Taking the Berserkers from the NA list, making them (full) elves and a substitute for Blade Dancers would be an option. Tbh, I haven’t found a different option yet that would originate from existing lists. But I don’t have any Blade Dancer models either, so it wouldn’t matter for us. Some solution for Buccaneers would be fine, but not necessary for the start.

    The other part is the general special ability. Should it also be changed?
    If so: The Elves’ one is very defensive, so a twilight one would be somehow similar but more offensive.
    Now I lack the experience yet to judge what special rules would be equivalent in power to what the Elves have. Vicious, being an obvious choice after what the TK have in KoW, is only good for close combat and I wouldn’t like to make the TK less shooty than their counterparts. So, Marksman in addition? How about the power?

    Now let’s look at the Wood Elves.
    They don’t have a dedicated list in KoW but we have a player with appropriate models.
    In their case, even more units can stay the same. For Cats, the Nature’s Wild Companions would be a quite similar but more appropriate replacement. Since the Nature list doesn’t have Hunter of the Wild either, there is no unit asking to be included on top of what we have. One could replace the Mage’s Mindstorm with Windblast to create some variation.
    But the main change I see here is to replace the normal Gladestalkers with the more elite and specialized Ice Kin Hinters from the NA list.

    And here again, should the ability be changed? I could see switching it entirely with the abilities from the Nature list. It should fit well that they don’t discriminate against non-elves thus making Cats and Shamblers a better inclusion.

    Now, your advice?
    Maybe (@ developers) there were already some TK ideas in progress and could be outright tested?
    And would a test of what I described above be still be of value for the beta?
    How much influence would test results have at this point of time anyway?

  • #2
    Wow, not a single reply after half a week!
    Is this forum so dead? Is this a clue on how the beta and rules development is going, or is just everyone on summer holidays?
    Never seen a beta running so… calm.

    I want slaves as ““Grunts”” for the dark elves. Levi is boring and stays at home if it can, barely part of a raiding party anyway.
    What entry do I take?
    Unfortunately, the Abyssals don’t have their Fleshlings included, they’d fit well.
    The Ab’’Dwarfs have Orc Slaves with a nice slave special rule. They seem dependant on a Slave Driver, but since it is their only Command anyway, one would just replace them with the Elven Prince in this rule, right?
    But I was rather looking for human slaves anyway. The Northern Alliance have some human Clansmen, which is as primitive as one can go with humans by the basic rules, or am I missing an entry? They’’d fit better with Nv 6+ and the slave rule from above, ofc., or just the worse Nv and lower points cost.

    Alternatively, we could use orcs only as slaves for this campaign.
    What would be better?
    Last edited by Kuanor; 08-07-2018, 02:25 AM.


    • #3
      Maybe my grasp on Twilight Kin is wrong. But for my liking slaves have no place in vanguard bands. I see vanguard forces as raiders, infiltrators or foragers - high motivated warrioirs be it levy or professionals. Slaves are fine as porters, but not as fighters.
      So i just don't like slave idia, but with human clansmen it might be well themed list.


      • #4
        Slaves are ofc. not supposed to be highly (or at all) motivated. They are supposed to be being highly motivated.
        Where other factions’ leaders bring their property to help them fight, so do Twilight Elves and Abyssal Dwarfs. Property they can sacrifice after a short thought about their monetary reserves and the availability of replacements.
        And here is my problem with NA clansmen: They are too “motivated” by themselves. I would use them for the lack of alternatives, but the AD’s slave orcs with their low morale and the appropriate special rule appear to be currently the only true slaves in the beta rules.
        Maybe the profile of Goblin Rabble would be even more appropriate for human slaves to represent how little they are warriors and how much livestock, but Rabble has the Sneaky special rule and pays it with points.

        An open question from the start of the thread and I can’t answer without gaming experience is still:
        If, to represent TK, we replace the Elves’ Parry+Dodge (for 2 Power points) with Vicious+Marksman, how much Power should it cost?
        Still 2? Because Parry+Dodge can be used any time there has been at least one hit, but for Vicious+Marksman you need to roll natural 1 on D8. Am I missing something?
        Last edited by Kuanor; 12-07-2018, 03:29 PM.


        • #5
          I've just put together a draft, basic TK list to go with the others that are being made available for download at launch (not in the book). The Vanguard RC need to review it and then it needs testing but for now, the warband ability gives all ELF models in the list Vicious for the remainder of the Round for 2 Power.
          "It's going to be like loading a bucket of sick into a rapid-firing bazooka"


          • #6
            Alright, thanks!

            If the units and unit costs are about the same as in the Elves list, if the TK is not supposed to be less shooty for some reason, and if I estimate the usefulness of Vicios right (i.e. not more than Parry), I’d add Marksman to Vicious as suggested above and leave it otherwise at ELF only and 2 Power.
            So, for now, this would be the version we will be using in our test.
            With the replaced units being Cats, Shamblers and Levy for Gargoyles, Orc Slaves and “"enslaved”" Human Clansmen.
            I’ll leave out other potentially enslavable races because firstly it would be too much and secondly, in the case of likewise “"enslaved”" elf levy, they would need a special rule to exclude them from the Vicious+Marksman ability.
            In an official version I wouldn’'t expect to see Orc Slaves at all, being left as a AD speciality, but for now…...

            We’ll start our "“test"” campaign when the campaign rules are ready. Things one has to consider for a longer and less abstract campaign turned out to be quite extensive, but we are actively working on getting something finished. I’ll post it here in a new thread. If until then there appears something more ready to test…...
            Is Vanguard supposed to have campaign rules like this, or rather more abstract ones like GW’s new Kill Team?
            I’'m hoping our version can be of some help for you.


            • #7
              Elf is now 3 power.
              "It's going to be like loading a bucket of sick into a rapid-firing bazooka"


              • #8
                I’ve not seen the kill team campaign rules. Vanguard has some fairly detailed ones though and ideas on how to combine vanaguard and KoW games in the same campaign. The 12 scenarios in the book all have a KoW “hook” to take the result of the vanguard game into the next KoW game, representing the actions of the warband affecting the battle.
                "It's going to be like loading a bucket of sick into a rapid-firing bazooka"


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mattjgilbert View Post
                  Elf is now 3 power.
                  Ah, I see! Vicious only for 2 points it is, then.

                  Kill-Team campaign rules, if you are curious. They have original elements, but are otherwise quite basic and abstract.
                  What we are doing is, to stay with GW comparisons, rather similar to Necromunda, so you see the difference.
                  I’ll also probably borrow some lists from Star-Struck City because I’m lazy about inventing details. ^^
                  Linking the results to KoW is a great idea! The 7th ed. WH Warband rules did so, too. I won’t touch this element in our version, though, because we are targetting a smaller scale. And before our campaign leads to a greater battle, your missions are probably out anyway.

                  Can you tell if the Nature ability changed anyhow? For out wood elves warband, where we are going to mainly use the Elves units with the Nature ability.


                  • #10
                    Nature have the FOREST DWELLERS (1) and AMBUSH (1) warband special abilities.
                    "It's going to be like loading a bucket of sick into a rapid-firing bazooka"


                    • #11
                      So nothing changed. Thx.


                      • #12
                        In other news...Matt has now produced a BASIC Twilight Kin list for us to playtest that will go up on the website at launch....


                        • #13
                          As he said above.
                          But thx anyway.


                          • #14
                            I can tell you that while basic, it plays pretty well and is well balanced


                            • #15
                              Which considering I made it up in 5 minutes is remarkable
                              "It's going to be like loading a bucket of sick into a rapid-firing bazooka"