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Hi everyone,

This is some advance warning that these forums will be closing shortly. The last day will be the 17th December 2018. We have noticed over the past couple of years that traffic on the forum and regular users have both decreased. As a result we’ve taken the difficult decision to close the forums. We’ll still be able to answer rules questions via social media and we’ll produce articles on the Mantic Blog too.

Many thanks to all of you for your contributions and conversations on the pages here. Special thanks are extended to the moderators who have kept things ticking over for us in the background.

If there is any content you wish to keep, please download and save it before the final closing date.
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KIngs of War is losing ground

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  • KIngs of War is losing ground

    The three clubs that I am connected to all have the same issue with Kings of War.
    Large differences in the power of the army lists.
    Previously, in first edition, these clubs would run a lot of games and the south London Warlords even had an annual winter league run by Phil Portway of 'Salute' fame.
    However...
    After 2nd edition came out and it became clear that the Goblin list and the Kingdoms of Men list had both become rubbish and hardly worth taking anymore, coupled with the beefing up of the already powerful Undead list and the onset of the Beast list with no terrain issues, the game as a tournament of league option has dwindled to the point where it's just not happening anymore.
    The crisis in army list power creep and nerfing has seen KoW drop from the no.1 perch in several clubs and simultaneously made other games more appealing.
    The basic mechanics are still fun and exciting but the lack of a genuine points costing valuation for troops and troop types, is having a long term negative effect on KoW.
    Its sad because first edition did so much right and it was a breath of fresh air.
    2nd edition has been a tinkering mess and the game as a whole has gone backwards because of the anomalies with the army lists.
    Good luck Mantic, now you are going behind closed doors, you may need it.
    All the best,
    FAB.
    Mantic, making tabletop gaming cheaper and more accessible to the masses. Philanthropy at it's finest.

  • #2
    Are you being serious? Goblins are underpowered rubbish? They are one of the best performing lists in the world, super powerful, and winning events in multiple regions and with all kinds of different styles of lists, and are CLEARLY and obviously in the top 3 armies in the game. They are SUPER powerful. Hard to take anything else in the post seriously if you have an opinion like that ...

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    • #3
      Trying to figure this one out...

      2nd edition has been a tinkering mess and the game as a whole has gone backwards because of the anomalies with the army lists.
      1st edition was notoriously awful for the anomalies in the army lists. Which issues do you feel are worse in 2nd?

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      • #4
        Goblins underpowered? Um....yeah.....
        Anyway, many aren't thrilled about the forum closing. I think its a mistake, but its their choice.
        To defend: this is the pact. But when life loses its meaning and is taken for naught,then the pact is to avenge!

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        • #5
          Ironically, trolls do well in the goblin list.

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          • #6
            Do we have an actual idea (preferably with some kind of data) of how well KoW is doing globally?

            It varies so much locally that it is difficult to tell.

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            • #7
              This forum is closing, that should give you a clear indication of how it's doing.
              Yes, Goblins suffered a significant nerfing between editions and so did Kingdoms of Men.
              Go back and look at the vitriol that poured out from all the players that invested in those armies.
              It's not my aim to do that here.
              Its all been said if you care to go back and wade through the agitated molasses of player despair,and it wouldn't have ruffled so many feathers if it wasn't true.
              No amount of blindly claiming that 'CLEARLY' there isn't an issue is going to make it disappear.

              It was enough of a reason to cause players to gravitate away from the game system.
              It is enough of a problem to stop players from running club events any longer.

              'Clearly' that speaks volumes in how this very issue has affected the player base.

              Furthermore, if there was a genuine standardised set of costings for troops and troop types, the issues would be easy to resolve, and may never have become an issue in the first place, but there isn't a solid troop costing process that rolls out through the army lists.
              It is largely guess work.
              Fortunately a largely excellent set of rules has mitigated the anomalies in the army lists but it hasn't been able to hide the overt cases.
              Particularly in the smaller tournament sized games (under 3000 points) that most people play, because it can be finished with a result in an evening.
              Undead are too powerful and Beasts have become the popular army list of choice because of their terrain ignoring abilities.

              First edition made KoW a very popular game system.
              On a global scale.
              2nd edition KoW is seeing the forum close and the game is losing ground from where it was, that much is undeniable.
              Mantic, making tabletop gaming cheaper and more accessible to the masses. Philanthropy at it's finest.

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              • #8
                I'll bite, a little.

                When your bandwagon is made up of people complaining on the internet 3 years ago, your logical fallacy should get a 75mm base.

                Many (if not most) player never played first edition, there was a big influx when GW released AoS. I would be very surprised if KoW isn't doing better than before AoS, at the very least.

                Fora in general seem to be in decline, KoW and other games appear to be much more active on social media.

                FAB you've managed to show a stunning lack of insight and degree to which you are out of touch with KoW. That makes you difficult to take seriously, I find it difficult to imagine that you are being sincere and not trolling.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by FAB View Post
                  (....)
                  Yes, Goblins suffered a significant nerfing between editions and so did Kingdoms of Men.
                  (....)
                  While Kingdoms of men hasn't ever been very competatieve; The were never nerfed, they weren't that good from the beginning. COK19 rumours give them a bit of a buff, but I'm al always hoping for a bit more.

                  Goblins were. They were justly nerfed; as they were very powerful and winning games all over the world.

                  That said, the yearly updates keep the meta a bit fresh. just look at the difference of the 2016 meta winning lists and the 2018 meta lists.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FAB View Post
                    This forum is closing, that should give you a clear indication of how it's doing.
                    The forum traffic may have been in steady decline but the groups on facebook are booming. This is not a KoW specific thing this seems to be a trend for other games and manufacturers as well.

                    Originally posted by FAB View Post
                    First edition made KoW a very popular game system.
                    On a global scale.
                    2nd edition KoW is seeing the forum close and the game is losing ground from where it was, that much is undeniable.
                    I don't think this is the experience of myself and many others. The KoW tournament schedule in the UK is pretty packed. Different regions seem to have different local scenes and the southeast doesn't seem to have as big an active player base as some other areas in the UK.
                    Last edited by Maccwar; 06-12-2018, 01:54 PM.

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                    • #11
                      FAB globally the game is FAR more massive than before. In v1 there was virtually no players in the US, now it has a large and thriving following and is the largest RnF fantasy game by many magnitudes.

                      As as far as goblins ... again, they are easily one of the 3 strongest factions, and win events all over the world with a variety of list styles from spam shooting, to almost all trolls. To monster mash to trash build/masses bodies to hybrids of any and all of those.

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                      • #12
                        FAB this forum died a few years ago when a technical issue caused the site to be blocked for most users for several months (this was compounded by mantic putting the instructions on how to unblock site on the forum... which people who needed to unblock the site couldn't access).

                        the community migrated to Facebook during the downtime and these forums just never recovered. The main Facebook group has gone from ~300 members during 1st edition to 9,500 today. There are now many active groups on Facebook separate to the main KoW Fanatics group, compared to just the one originally.

                        CoKuk has gone from a maximum of 30 players (with 16 players at the last 1st ed tournament) in 1st ed to 84 players. It used to be the only 2 day event in the calendar, now there are multiple 2 day events in the calendar and each will get around 24-30 players.

                        One day events in the UK have gone from struggling to get the minimum 6 player turnout for events 3 months apart to most getting 16+ turnouts at events that are just 2 weeks apart.

                        This forum might be dead for a number of reasons, but the game and online community most definitely is not.

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                        • #13
                          I remembered my log in just to respond to this.

                          **** you're dumb. KoW had like 12 people playing it. Now you can easily get that by just advertising an one day event. The game is doing better than 1st ed by a long shot.

                          Lastly forums in general are dying.
                          Pathfinder for Charleston, WV area

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                          • #14
                            The rules from 1st to 2nd eds have been cleared up and improved, but unfortunately the "points" do not seem to work. I know there appears to be a booming competition scene, but is this due to GW Fantasy 8th ed, bringing the demise of those competitions and all the ex-GW players turning to KoW for Solace and then all the nerfing that came in the various CoK, why?.

                            If there was not anything wrong with the "armies" why add all the extra bits in CoK. I would like to see a formula (which there ain't). I have pointed up all the armies in War of the Ring for KoW and it bloody well works.

                            I played an ex- GW competition player who used his CoK list (dwarves), whereas I just used my standard Gobbo List. all the little nuances from CoK were used very well by the ultra competitive player. I even allowed him to move a unit he forgot to move, during shooting phase. In a later turn I forgot to shoot my rock lobber and remembered in my melee phase, to which he replied "that phase had gone" (he needed to Win at all costs). Any way I took out one of his units and my army was destroyed completely by turn 5. Could have been my poor Generalship, but I have played Gobbos for many years and normally give the opponent a run for their money.

                            Don't get me wrong, I love KoW, the rules drew me back to fantasy gaming and I have now 9 KoW Armies. Unfortunately the 12 or so players at my club are saying the later armies are much stronger than the stuff from the original lists, be it Ed 1 or 2 lists. My 1500 Point gobbos went up by a couple of hundred points in the 2nd ed.

                            Put on tin helmet and retire to bunker!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TripleJ7007 View Post
                              I remembered my log in just to respond to this.

                              **** you're dumb. KoW had like 12 people playing it. Now you can easily get that by just advertising an one day event. The game is doing better than 1st ed by a long shot.

                              Lastly forums in general are dying.
                              It's because GW Fantasy players need their fix of competitions, which is fine, but that is where the extra interest has come from. The 2 ed is better than the 1st, definitely!

                              And yes Forums are dying, which is a shame as they are more of an archive, whereas FB is instantly there and then gone, as the thread drops down the feed.

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