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Why elven archers are significantly more useful than human arquebussiers?:

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  • #31
    You people do understand that if the RC nerfs Archers to De3? That means Elf archers now become obsolete unit. As Elf players will not run them. They turn to War Chariots instead. I do not know about your local meta? But at events I attend, I see way more War Chariot hordes then Archer Hordes by 4-1 ratio or better. (as it is now)

    Last edited by Desert Fox; 30-04-2018, 06:45 PM.

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    • #32
      For me at least, this is not about Elven Archers. I agree each army list does some things better - Elves do archers better and that's fine.

      Probably better to compare a Kingdoms of Men Archer Horde (165 Points) and a Crossbowmen Horde (190 Points) and ask if you would pay the extra 25 points for Piercing (1) at the cost of Reload? I don't think I've ever seen the Crossbowmen used. Even if you take the Troop or Regiment sizes should Crossbowmen cost more given the 1 point of Piercing but the significant penalty of Reload?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Desert Fox View Post
        You people do understand that if the RC nerfs Archers to De3? That means Elf archers now become obsolete unit. As Elf players will not run them. They turn to War Chariots instead. I do not know about your local meta? But at events I attend, I see way more War Chariot hordes then Archer Hordes by 4-1 ratio or better. (as it is now)
        That is true. My point was the KoM bowmen are a bit too expensive at least as regiments and hordes for what they can do but Elf archers are not significantly underpriced. In fact, I find naked hordes of both Elf Kindred archers and TK light crossbowmen (same basic unit) underwhelming unless they either have heart-seeking chant or the jar on them.

        It has to do with cost for a chariot horde, greater mobility and frontage (chariot hordes actually have a narrower front, even though deeper). Brad McKay just won best general with two Darkscythe chariots as allies at Lone Wolf and I played three TK Chariot hordes and they were well worth playing. It is interesting how just adding +1 speed and +1 nerve improved the unit but I was considering them even before COK2018.

        But, I don't think even Elf or TK chariot hordes are too good after the buffs; they still are kind of both shooting and both combat but not superior at either and can be vulnerable to flanks and have a really larger footprint. They need support and a full TK horde chariot spam army (as we saw at masters) will not necessarily win without some chaff and melee units to work with. Against faster flying hordes, higher defense and/or healing, and on tables with lots of terrain, as I saw this last weekend, they can be limited at times, just not quite enough shooting damage (especially through terrain) to soften up something for melee. Elf chariots have only 16 attacks but +1 speed. TK chariots have 18 attacks but less speed.

        Originally posted by Phasestar View Post
        For me at least, this is not about Elven Archers. I agree each army list does some things better - Elves do archers better and that's fine.

        Probably better to compare a Kingdoms of Men Archer Horde (165 Points) and a Crossbowmen Horde (190 Points) and ask if you would pay the extra 25 points for Piercing (1) at the cost of Reload? I don't think I've ever seen the Crossbowmen used. Even if you take the Troop or Regiment sizes should Crossbowmen cost more given the 1 point of Piercing but the significant penalty of Reload?
        That is especially true when one can put heart-seeking chant on for 30 points and get the same unit without the reload issue which is huge in the game.
        Last edited by Lurcker2; 01-05-2018, 04:23 PM.

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        • #34
          I think there are two things that should be done, in general, with shooting on this topic.

          First, I think the range of standard shooting infantry that have the Reload rule should be tweaked up a tad, like say maybe 6 for Crossbow type weapons and 12 for black powder weapons (Ogres already basically do this). This would give these units a much better threat range to justify both their increased costs and static nature. This would also put them on par with the utility provided by most archery chariot units in the game, as the chariots would have the speed and utility, while static shot hordes would have the superior nerve and reach. There would be very specific uses for each type of ranged unit, as a result of this. These units need to remain stationary to project threat, so they should be able to extend that threat into the enemy deployment zone to some degree.

          Second, I think that Heart Piercing Chant needs to be barred from use on Hordes and dropped slightly in cost to reflect a more surgical shooting unit. As it is, it almost universally gets used on some abusively efficient horde (Elven Archers, Decimators, ect) that can often, though combination of movement and raw efficiency, just create a giant bubble of nope in the middle of the table that neither static shooting or combat units can compare with. There are also a lot of builds that take a single horde of their primary mobile archer unit and this item is basically nearly always taken on that unit, which stifles variation in armies and prevents static shooters from having any consideration in such lists. Making the only option for Pierce to be on units with it built in would make those units much more viable. And, frankly as someone who does not like shooting much, I think the same thing should be done with Brew of Strength for the same reason.

          On the topic of Elven shooting, in particular, as something I am personally familiar with: I have used two war chariots in all my lists since the first day I started playing elves, because of the utility. I have never seen more than a single archer horde in any elven army played by anyone else and I would never consider using such a unit, myself. Nerfing elven archers would pretty much assure that no one ever used them. Frankly, they are already pretty ludicrously easy to counter with the 70ish point D5 mounted hero chaff many people run. I don't want to see them be any more effective, either.

          I think that what needs to happen is more units akin to the historical archers with the Skirmish rule, particularly in the human armies. Having used (and abused) Riverguard with Nimble 6 throwing weapons and vicious, on top of their solid combat ability, its pretty obvious that human archers should probably be smaller troops that support the mainline Xbows and gunpowder units (which is more in keeping with their classic roles) to create a more dynamic game, even when shooting is a heavy element of it. Non-scoring nimble troops of human archers pumping out 8-10 shots at a cheap price would add some character to the army and leave it with maneuverability. Unfortunately, we probably will have to wait for KoW3 to get that kind of overhaul, so I think the easiest solution is the two tweaks I suggested above.

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          • #35
            More specifically on the topic of Chariots, I think they were all very competitive before CoK18 buffed them. Now, they do seem to be the strongest element of the elf army, at least how I play it. The utility they give is just unbeatable by anything commonly out there in the game. Frankly, I think KoM players should be running theirs, as well. People shy away from them due to the longer base, but getting around to flank them without ending up in their charge threat is fairly difficult. The Pathfinder potion and Hammer of Measured Force mitigate the major issues chariots tend to have (the wife and I got great use out of both all weekend) and are extremely cheap. Their added height gives them shooting opportunities that typical ranged units simply will not have and makes them a much more effective protection for support characters. In a game where movement is this important, I think they are a rare all purpose bargain unit in each army they exist. The few that do not have ranged attacks (Basilea and Ogres) tend to hit so hard that this is largely irrelevant to their use. And for the ranged versions, their combat ability lets them cover the center (with generally good nerve and acceptable Def) without needing extra chaff to step in front of them. Chariots (even pre buff) are simply good for any army that can take them. The KoM ones are no exception.

            This is why I am a fan of upping ranges on the Reload units. Then there would be three distinct classes of shooters in the game, each with their central role. You would have the Xbow and Black Powder units that hunker down and have long punishing reach. You would have the more fluid medium range archery units that are low cost. And then you would have chariots (and certain similar cavalry units) acting as the dual purpose but pricier option. In addition to granting purpose to these units, it would open things up to a wider range of units on the table. Frankly, a KoM army with some chariots, some arquebuses, and some foot archers, sprinking in some knights and support blocks, would be a much more interesting looking army. And it would make for a much more tactical (and enjoyable) experience in the game. As is, I think in most cases buying these types of units (Xbows, Arqs, ect) is paying points for a worse unit, tactically. And as much as I dislike shooting armies, they need to exist and there needs to be variety in them.

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            • #36
              For version three I think the best solution is to adjust points slightly rather than changing the rules. In my opinion giving a bigger discount for reload is the solution.

              If we compare a kingdoms of men Bowmen Horde with Piercing item for 195 pts vs. a Crossbowmen Horde for 190 pts. We see that for otherwise identical units the crossbows have received a discount of 5 points for having the negative rule of "reload". I think we can all agree that this is not a big enough discount for the negative impact of this rule. I would think 15 to 20 points would be more appropriate. Giving the player the option of choosing based on the role they want the unit to have rather than one unit being inherently better. If a crossbowmen horde was 170 points would you take it? If an arquebusier horde was 205 would it be Over Powered and an auto include?

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              • #37
                I'd have to disagree with KOM Chariots being good.

                As someone that has played KOM for a while now, I tried Chariots several times and found they simply are not worth their points. The RA 5+ is significantly worse than the RA 4+. Another thing to consider is that KOM armies are unit heavy, meaning Chariots rarely get a clear shot because its own units often obscure LOS. If KOM Chariots were ever to be used, it would be in Regiments. 115 points is still pricey, but not terrible. For fluffy lists, KOM Chariots are fine, but for any competitive list, KOM Chariots are not good...even with the buff.

                The KOM army list is slightly over-pointed...although some units are in a good spot. And at the same time, KOM do not have an powerful, army-wide rule, like Elite or Vicious. A 5 to 20 point reduction should be done to the KOM army for several units.

                I'm ok with units that have "Reload!" staying 24". The problem with extending the range is that it encourages gun-line lists that sit way back.

                I do not think that Reload! units are over-pointed, I believe that fast/flying units are under-pointed. And since many competitive list spam fast units, Reload! units seem over-pointed and inefficient.

                This is a problem with all the armies in KOW 2nd edition...Mantic did not properly balance speed. This is what makes Ratkin and Elves so strong (in addition to their powerful army-wide rules) is, effectively, a free Speed 6.

                One could toss Herd in this group, but that army is balanced by the fact that the Herde have no strong shooting options.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Saeboth View Post
                  (....)

                  As someone that has played KOM for a while now, I tried Chariots several times and found they simply are not worth their points. The RA 5+ is significantly worse than the RA 4+.(....)
                  The KOM army list is slightly over-pointed...although some units are in a good spot. And at the same time, KOM do not have an powerful, army-wide rule, like Elite or Vicious. A 5 to 20 point reduction should be done to the KOM army for several units.
                  (.....)

                  I do not think that Reload! units are over-pointed, I believe that fast/flying units are under-pointed. And since many competitive list spam fast units, Reload! units seem over-pointed and inefficient. This is a problem with all the armies in KOW 2nd edition...Mantic did not properly balance speed. (....).
                  Agree with you that Ra5+ is significantly worse than Ra4+ (which is one of the two points I wanted to make in the OP). I do not fully agree with the fact that reload! is pointed correctly, but maybe the effect of making speed more effective is the same. (better balance in missile weapons)

                  The best point you make is that some parts of the KoM army are slightly over pointed. KoM infantry is fine (cheap, but without special rules), heroes are perfect (also cheap and serviceable, but not great warrior by themselves) , the main problem with the army is that one of its strenghtst (high piercing shooting, both from units and war machines) is not reliable enough. This makes the army lack units that can reliably do a lot of damage. Ally in a pair of hammers in a KoM melee army, and the army isn't so bad, but it's pretty one-dimensional.





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                  • #39
                    This is why I am a fan of tacking an additional six inches of range to all of the various Reload units in the game. If Xbows and Riflemen of various stripes can start tapping things on top of turn one, they suddenly are worth their points. And, no, most speed units are not undercosted. These units pay anywhere from 50 points to 50% cost increase for their movement. Just like shooting units, there are select offenders and the RC is getting around to addressing them on both fronts. And again, if reload units had 30 inch range on average, the speed units have to eat another turn of some chip damage before they reach the lines.

                    Low shot war engines need some help, too, but that's a separate discussion. Right now, we have a vast array of ranged options, but all you ever see are archer hordes, indirect **** engine, and breath weapon with pierce spam. The ideal balance would have ranged armies planting a few chip wounds to give them an edge in the eventual combat, but the current state is akin to "erase me in one or two turns or I will faceroll your army" coinflips. And I do believe that helping Reload infantry units is a key to fixing this situation, along with direct fire war engines.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Thorgrim View Post
                      If you really believe that "KoM isn't an effective army" there's really nothing to discuss as you won't see reason. KoM can be one of the best damn armies in the game, they have some of the best, most cost effective units in the game. They are a brilliant army. You don't see them talked about a lot simply because not many people want to play generic, bland human armies in a fantasy game with dragons and demons and trolls and elves.
                      Lol that didn't take long. Guy puts so much effort into a thread and 5 posts in has a guy telling him to shut up. Some things never change.

                      In regards to the actual thread, my solution was always much simpler. Make Elite and Vicious only count for melee, not shooting. This balances two of the most powerful army wide rules (Elves and Abyssal Dorfs) and makes running melee based armies for both much more attractive.
                      Last edited by Vega; 15-05-2018, 02:02 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Vega View Post
                        Lol that didn't take long. Guy puts so much effort into a thread and 5 posts in has a guy telling him to shut up. Some things never change.
                        Thanks for the compliment.
                        And yea, this the internet. One breeds a thick skin on public forums such as these.

                        It seems, though, that the Mantic forum is generally a bit more pleasant than the former WHFB community, there's always those few guys that can better be ignored.

                        Originally posted by Vega View Post
                        In regards to the actual thread, my solution was always much simpler. Make Elite and Vicious only count for melee, not shooting. This balances two of the most powerful army wide rules (Elves and Abyssal Dorfs) and makes running melee based armies for both much more attractive.
                        This is something worth exploring. A few playtests can help sort out if this will work or not. It's realy and elegant solution if it does.

                        My gut feeling is this is not necesarily the best option, as both Elite and Vicious are already not that effective on its own. It's the combination of elite and ranged 4+ that makes elves so much better than human shooters. If elves had either increased (ranged) stats OR elite, the difference wouldn't be so big.

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                        • #42
                          The issue with splitting Elite and Vicious into mele and shooting versions (say Marksman and Sniper?) or removing them from shooting is that it would interfere with the balance of some of the casters out there (the elf and salamander ones would be overpriced without it), so that's probably something to address in v3. Right now, the concern is that Reload infantry and single shot (non indirect) war engines need a little love. You don't do that by nerfing the other 90% of the game, especially when there are a couple of really simple adjustments you can try.

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                          • #43
                            Lists using reload shooters have and do finish super well. A KoM list with a horde of arq. finished 8th or 9th in battle at Lonewolf, including almost max scoring against Aaron, despite being run by a person who literally hadn't played a competitive game in over a year before the event. A dwarven shooting list with a horde of rifles has done extremely well in the SE. There just aren't many top players using these style lists (and in the case of KoM not many/if any top players playing it period).

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                            • #44
                              Thorgrim, the defender of the maligned list!!!

                              (I jest, please don't use the hammer on me)

                              TBH, the use of a reload! unit, especially a horde, is not just to do damage, and the analysis only focuses on this.
                              these units are very good at threatening an entire lane of fire that nobody really wants to get into without some covering chaff, they are good at dictating the lay of the land, nobody is gonna position hteir heavy cav in front of a horde of arquebusiers because that's dumb, but in front of some archers? maybe, my armour will see me through. (Pshychologically, whether it is true in fact is another story)

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                              • #45
                                I think flying units are just about in balance for their points now, with the disorder change and the reduction of unit strength for nimble. Speed in general is still a bit too cheap.

                                The main consideration for me with the proposals here is that it's not a lot of fun to get shot on Turn 1 before you even move.

                                I think it's more fun to let the reload units keep their current range, but for non-warmachines let them move and shoot with some kind of additional penalty. I think it's reasonable that these weapons are slower to reload, but there would always be some soldiers with their weapons loaded that could take shots even if the unit changed facing or moved, just fewer than if it stayed stationary. That would make them a bit more interesting during the battle and would be more fun than having three hordes of Arquebusiers firing into the enemy deployment zone on the first turn.

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