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So, What's Going On With Dungeon Saga?

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  • #61
    Personally I think that random dungeons need a complete rewrite, and probably a totally different set of cards. Two bosses per dungeon is silly, objectives vary wildly in difficulty - and some could be completed in turn 1, though you you wouldn't know till much, much later. 1 troop type per card is dull and doesn't work anyway (only piles of bones for instance). No pointers on how to pick enemies with an IO. Random difficulty in each room means some games are much harder than others. The unexplored dungeon cards produce way too many choke-points that a) mean the heroes lose on time, and b) are really really dull, with one hero fighting whilst the others stand and watch. Some traps are much better than others. Some locks are tougher. There's just wildly differing difficulty levels each time.

    I've done quite a bit of work on a program to generate random dungeons and in doing so have found a lot of issues. I think it works pretty well now, though translating it to cards would be hard to impossible.

    (Latest version linked here https://www.mantic.club/forum/dwarf-...857#post309857)

    Oh and the bestiary is incomplete, unbalanced, inconsistent with KoW and not set in Mantica.

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    • #62
      For Controlling Challenge I was going to set a max minion level. Then you can use minions of high level as a "Boss" which cuts down on making so many bosses. Sort of see this in the Core game where the Zombie Troll is soft of the boss on an early mission.

      1 Troop type per zone certainly has to go. Biggest issue I found here was setting up a minion/raise dead pool.

      For the Choke points I shift the new zones to try to link as many doors as possible between zones.

      Probably can work one on scaling the various elements with a table that translate various card values (lock strengths and levels) based on character levels.

      Not a Mantica expert so cannot comment about how the races differ from the fluff.
      Dungeon Saga Content: Unofficial FAQ, Mission Reviews, QuickStart Character Creation Guide, Expanded AI Rules, Pre Made Bosses

      http://twilight40k.blogspot.com/p/so...-saga-ind.html

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      • #63
        a complete rewrite would be necessary, of course, but meanwhile i think with some adjustment the uncharted dungeon can be fun enough

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        • #64
          Originally posted by cultistapazzo View Post
          a complete rewrite would be necessary, of course, but meanwhile i think with some adjustment the uncharted dungeon can be fun enough
          Honestly, I think the return on time for a full rewrite of the whole book is not going to be that great. For example, you could throw out the whole leveling system and replace it with say just pick from various improvements but then people will just pick the very best abilities all the time. Or you could do a point buy system but then you need to calculate all the costs of all the abilities and spells and look out for combos,etc.

          I also think the further you go from the published materials and cards the less uptake there will be in the community. I could write an Android app for replace the uncharted cards but I really do not want to format it for all the different screen types or make an apple version. If you can read the stuff in the AC than like 1 extra page of notes or adjustments for that section then I think that is a good middle ground to get the current structure to a level where feedback can really tell use if it needs to be tossed or just further refined in a new professionally done edition which has more options for new cards or really significant changes.
          Dungeon Saga Content: Unofficial FAQ, Mission Reviews, QuickStart Character Creation Guide, Expanded AI Rules, Pre Made Bosses

          http://twilight40k.blogspot.com/p/so...-saga-ind.html

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          • #65
            Originally posted by eriochrome View Post
            For Controlling Challenge I was going to set a max minion level. Then you can use minions of high level as a "Boss" which cuts down on making so many bosses. Sort of see this in the Core game where the Zombie Troll is soft of the boss on an early mission.
            Just don't make the cut off too low - for an Orcs and Goblins dungeon I want to see orcs pretty quickly, if not straight away (maybe that's using them as a boss as you suggest)

            Originally posted by eriochrome View Post
            For the Choke points I shift the new zones to try to link as many doors as possible between zones.
            I have tried that, but for most cards, it just doesn't help. Most of them have at least one side that only has one door - that's always going to be a choke point. Deck E pretty much ruins any game it's in - that's the first thing I got rid of. Even having only one double door between zones can be a real problem. You need every side of every card to have a minimum of two doors. Entry points to cards can then be fudged with extra corridors.

            Originally posted by eriochrome View Post
            Not a Mantica expert so cannot comment about how the races differ from the fluff.
            Is there someone who is a Mantica expert working on the bestiary? Or anyone at all for that matter?


            I do think you're right that a full rewrite isn't needed for most of the book, just quite a bit of tweaking. The Uncharted Dungeons is a different matter though.

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            • #66
              Rules as written Goblins and Orcs are not even in the same Dungeon for Uncharted since they are from different Bestiary sections. Other people are more versed in the fluff, I am just not interested in investing in KOW books to get the information personally.

              The Dungeons will always have choke points that is the nature of the game uncharted or not. If the choke points are really distasteful I would build the option of branching dungeons. If you roll a single output door then you roll again and place more doors if there are still 2 or more zones remaining. The when you open one of those 2 zones you roll a die to see if it has an exit or the other side does depending on the zones remaining. Starting to get pretty far afield though.
              Dungeon Saga Content: Unofficial FAQ, Mission Reviews, QuickStart Character Creation Guide, Expanded AI Rules, Pre Made Bosses

              http://twilight40k.blogspot.com/p/so...-saga-ind.html

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              • #67
                Most of the printed adventures don't have the kind of choke points that UD throws up a lot of the time. There's usually more than one way to get to the end. So if the heroes get stuck on one path, they can take another.

                It's also harder to balance choke points (like in Tyrant of Halpi 1) and as such are more suited to planned missions rather than random ones. In most cases, the minions on the other side of a choke point start a good way off from it, giving the heroes time to get through it. In a UD, that often doesn't happen - and with the IO there are a lot more interrupts so the heroes can get bogged down quite quickly.

                Cards could be a decent way of building a random dungeon - but the decks are just badly designed. The ideal solution (in my opinion) would be to redesign and reprint them. I'd also try to put different furniture set ups on the same card - most of the cards have one version with furniture and one without - that could easily be done on one card (say 4+ you place the furniture - or you could do it for each piece individually). I don't hold out much hope that Mantic will print new cards though, so I'm not sure there is a good solution.

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                • #68
                  New cards are unlikely in the next year so trying to work with what we have is best option currently. Maybe the 2 card types with the worst choke points could be used in a special draw for the last zone. Say place the E and B/D cards aside. Draw 1 card from each of the other deck as normal then select 3 at random. Now add 1 E and 1 B/D to the remaining cards and then select 1 at random for the last tile. So E might show up at the last tile but it is not showing up earlier.
                  Dungeon Saga Content: Unofficial FAQ, Mission Reviews, QuickStart Character Creation Guide, Expanded AI Rules, Pre Made Bosses

                  http://twilight40k.blogspot.com/p/so...-saga-ind.html

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I've put alot of thought into this area actually, as I see Uncharted or a variation of it as the underpin or foundation of this games longevity - I think we need to allow the game to be pulled off the shelf and a"new" scenario available to be played with ease.

                    I've been working on the same idea that Fyrax has mentioned, a single set of Uncharted Maps that has all the content (furniture, minions, traps, chests) on them, but using dice rolls (or alternative decision making process) to determine if the furniture, traps etc are present etc.

                    My proposal and to reduce the dependancy on cards (and general card bloat) is to create a Map Library in a future print release (a reference section) that you can easily refer to, rolling D66 to select the zone map (if any result repeated then re-roll as you don't want to need tiles already in place) from the initial output of 36 map variations.
                    This is less than provided with the current Uncharted cards (think there are 8 groups) but I have been plotting new zone layouts that condenses the tiles and creating more even (and less choke point reliant) tile variations. With the further decision making process during setup in determining what objects on the map are actually present in this variation you are about to play, I expect the actual variations in maps will be far greater than just 36.

                    That's my theory so far, and the out workings/samples of it that I've played with so far have been promising.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      If one was doing a print release I would probably try for the Overlord's Plan with all the overlord side stuff in it. Maybe when we see what the Star Saga Mission Creator expansion looks like we can see what Mantic is thinking along these lines.


                      Dungeon Saga Content: Unofficial FAQ, Mission Reviews, QuickStart Character Creation Guide, Expanded AI Rules, Pre Made Bosses

                      http://twilight40k.blogspot.com/p/so...-saga-ind.html

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Really interesting to see you guys hacking details out in the forum.

                        Hmm... I have to say it sounds like Star Saga is kind of getting in the way of things on your guyses end.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Carcearion View Post
                          Really interesting to see you guys hacking details out in the forum.

                          Hmm... I have to say it sounds like Star Saga is kind of getting in the way of things on your guyses end.
                          I would not say it is getting in the way but more like if Mantic is professionally developing a mission creator expansion for Star Saga that may be very different from what we might do it could be good to see how the player base responds. I think most Dungeon Saga players looked at Uncharted and were either confused or saw problems very fast so did not both to play it much. If we can clean up some of the really obvious problems with a page of discussions/modifications so that more people will really try it then we can get a lot more feedback on it for the big changes.

                          Overall the whole AC was printed at like an Alpha/Beta development level. It was clearly never really tried or read by people who were not Jake or had not been taught how it was supposed to work by him. So If we can get it to a release level of polish say by the end of the summer and then use feedback over the winter to formulate a true second edition that might then be ready for next fall.
                          Last edited by eriochrome; 16-06-2017, 02:59 PM.
                          Dungeon Saga Content: Unofficial FAQ, Mission Reviews, QuickStart Character Creation Guide, Expanded AI Rules, Pre Made Bosses

                          http://twilight40k.blogspot.com/p/so...-saga-ind.html

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by eriochrome View Post
                            So If we can get it to a release level of polish say by the end of the summer and then use feedback over the winter to formulate a true second edition that might then be ready for next fall.
                            I really like this

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                            • #74
                              This is Mantic so Fall of course means the next Spring.
                              Dungeon Saga Content: Unofficial FAQ, Mission Reviews, QuickStart Character Creation Guide, Expanded AI Rules, Pre Made Bosses

                              http://twilight40k.blogspot.com/p/so...-saga-ind.html

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by ezeqiel View Post
                                I've put alot of thought into this area actually, as I see Uncharted or a variation of it as the underpin or foundation of this games longevity - I think we need to allow the game to be pulled off the shelf and a"new" scenario available to be played with ease.

                                I've been working on the same idea that Fyrax has mentioned, a single set of Uncharted Maps that has all the content (furniture, minions, traps, chests) on them, but using dice rolls (or alternative decision making process) to determine if the furniture, traps etc are present etc.

                                My proposal and to reduce the dependancy on cards (and general card bloat) is to create a Map Library in a future print release (a reference section) that you can easily refer to, rolling D66 to select the zone map (if any result repeated then re-roll as you don't want to need tiles already in place) from the initial output of 36 map variations.
                                This is less than provided with the current Uncharted cards (think there are 8 groups) but I have been plotting new zone layouts that condenses the tiles and creating more even (and less choke point reliant) tile variations. With the further decision making process during setup in determining what objects on the map are actually present in this variation you are about to play, I expect the actual variations in maps will be far greater than just 36.

                                That's my theory so far, and the out workings/samples of it that I've played with so far have been promising.
                                That's good to hear - and I've had similar results. If you want to compare notes anytime I'd be up for that.

                                Are the zones separated out by the first roll? Meaning there are 6 map groups?

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